Mortified by what I've overheard from DH's workmates - AIBU

[poppingcandy1]

NC because I am utterly mortified by this

This evening DH had a work social and had some work friends round to the garden for drinks before they went out. It's well known that a young girl who used to work with them had a big crush on DH, nothing has happened between them however and he always said he found it cringey. This evening I arrived home with DDs before DH and mates went out, and I overheard DH's mate say "are you still wnking over ?" about the ex colleague who fancied him. His response was not impressive, he sort of raised his eyebrows and laughed - very laddy and disgusting really.

I feel really upset over this but don't know if I am being unreasonable. She was a pretty young woman and they probably all thought that, so maybe I shouldn't expect better especially as they had no idea I was there. But I just feel really uncomfortable about the whole thing and now am worried DH actually really enjoyed this crush she had on him and his feelings were more untoward than I thought.

Help kick some sense into me!

@ufucoffee

The people on here who think their husbands/partners wouldn't talk like that. They do. You just don't know about it.

Low standards. ^^

[quote mathanxiety]@saraclara, pointing out on this thread that there is sometimes misandry and ageism on MN is an attempt to shame women into silence.

It's saying 'Only if you're completely innocent of all isms yourself can you complain about misogyny'.[/quote]
Yup. Classic whataboutery.

[quote Porcupineintherough]**@Moonwhite* bollocks. Colleague may well have been taking the piss based in nothing more than the young woman in question having been perceived to like the OP's* husband.[/quote]
This 👆 Husband may have been caught by surprise. He did ‘a look’. We don’t know what he was thinking.

OP, he’s your husband. You know him best. Just say (as another poster suggested) that you heard the conversation and wish he had handled it differently. A chat about the related issues might mean he could handle ‘male banter’ conversations better next time.

Hello again

Thanks everyone a lot of useful replies and insights here and you have definitely made me think.

DDs didn't hear any of this said by the way. We kept out the way and they were down the garden, the reason I heard is i was going to go out and say hello, then heard this and thought much better of it.

In terms of what I'm bothered about, obviously I don't want DH speaking in a lewd way about women but as people have pointed out he didn't actually say anything. I also know that DH probably does wank over other things and as PP have said, just something you don't really want to think about.

I guess my main sticking point and thing that has made me sad is the idea DH is bantering about this woman fancying him with his mates, showing off the fact she likes him, saying he likes it/is wanking over it or whatever, and meanwhile telling me he finds the crush awkward / embarrassing etc. It just makes me question what he is actually like as a person a little bit - who is he being false with? me or them?

Oh and the eyebrow raise/laugh at the comment. It was less of an eyebrow raise as if the mate was saying something inappropriate, and more of a eyebrows up and down in an encouraging way - more similar to if he'd have winked as his mate!

I guess my main sticking point and thing that has made me sad is the idea DH is bantering about this woman fancying him with his mates, showing off the fact she likes him, saying he likes it/is wanking over it or whatever, and meanwhile telling me he finds the crush awkward / embarrassing etc. It just makes me question what he is actually like as a person a little bit - who is he being false with? me or them?

I wouldn't assume he has said to them that he does, I know a lot of men can be quite open but that'd still be a weird thing to say. His work friends are more than likely ribbing him, and it can be more awkward with people you work with than genuine mates to say you don't like them talking about something..

@poppingcandy1, he will behave differently with the lads to how he does with you.

I think we all behave slightly differently depending on who we're with.

There's no way to tell whether he is being false with you or his colleagues - he simply won't admit to anything. The other thing I would keep in kind is men can just make up these stupid things up because they think its funny - a wind up if you will. Your DH may well never have said anything about this woman but his colleagues find it weirdly hilarious to make up like she liked him or playing it out as your DH liking her and its just a running joke. A similar joke ran with my partner and his friends and it was all total bollocks and - boys being boys. The best you can hope for is an apology if you decide to tell him it gave you icky feelings about him.

’Boys being boys’ 🙄

It genuinely could be as MaMaD1990 has said, I work within mens team sports and honestly the stuff that is said is awful but most of it is just made up crap that has no bearing on reality. Like others have said thinking about someone whilst wanking is probably quite normal, if there was more to it such as them talking to each other about wanking over each other, then obviously that is a line crossed.

Unless the workmate's a mind-reader though, he was referring to a conversation where her DH had been expressing interest/attraction to a young female colleague. I think that's the larger issue.

You have no reason to think that. Workmate could be referring to general knowledge than the colleague liked DH with ‘banter’. DH doesn’t have to have encouraged it or agreed to it.

It’s a crude and vulgar conversation but it’s not indicative of the DH doing anything inappropriate either legally (like sexual harassment) or morally (like cheating). It’s his friend who made a crude sexist joke.

mathanxiety I really don't disagree with you, not a word of what you've said. How though are women supposed to centre themselves? Many women are struck dumb when faced with the simplest, gentlest confrontations.

OP wouldn't have walked into this gathering and shut them up. Whether or husband was appalled or struck dumb himself, he didn't either. I'm focusing on what we've been told and that is that OP overheard. I take from that that she was never meant to hear this vile conversation. If it had been said in front of her then that would be proof positive and she would possibly have a very different view.

I'm not pretending that other people have worse problems, I'm focused on OP's problem specifically, it's incredibly hurtful of her husband - whatever the reasons for not shutting the conversation down.

I also don't see more than a few posters excusing this as 'banter' (yuck) in over 200 posts and I think that's actually quite positive.

I would sit down as normal and mid usual chat, say -"so dear, are you still wanking over * then?'
His reaction will tell you all you need to know.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty laid back about most things - but If I found out my Dh was getting off to presumably photos? From social media? Or whatever, of a girl he know fancied him, that would be me done. It's absolutely crossing a line, and he's obviously spoken to his mates about it and said he finds her attractive so I'd be fuming.

It's really not. All these things should be called out. And yes, some of us do call out the less popular -isms on here. But the vast majority don't, and another proportion will actively complain if we do.

Good on you for trying to bring down Mumsnet from within @saraclara. And for continuing to hang out here and post when MN is so clearly against your own values and principles.

OP - not sure what to suggest really, in light of your recent posts. You clearly don’t feel able to talk to your DH about it, so I guess sweeping it under the carpet is the only option.

@stellaisabella

I would sit down as normal and mid usual chat, say -"so dear, are you still wanking over * then?' His reaction will tell you all you need to know.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty laid back about most things - but If I found out my Dh was getting off to presumably photos? From social media? Or whatever, of a girl he know fancied him, that would be me done. It's absolutely crossing a line, and he's obviously spoken to his mates about it and said he finds her attractive so I'd be fuming.

Have you ever met any men? They don’t need an excuse to take the piss and they don’t need any stimulation to knock one off.

None of us have any idea what’s happened. I think it’s hugely disrespectful to the OP to assume that her husband is looking at images of this woman while wanking or discussing it with his colleagues.

Her husband is guilty of not pushing back in a sexist conversation. It’s not great, but it’s hardly unusual. You don’t know any more than that.

A lot of guys of all ages are like sheep— be it yobbery amongst football fans some of whom don’t seem to have moved on from the 70s and are now in their 50s and 60s and younger ones with their ‘bro’ type ‘dodgy banter’ amongst each other— I think it’s a kind of tribal ‘needing to belong’ kind of thing— I kid you not we went out with 3 other couples and one of the guys who is a coming up 60 heavyweight professional but also seems to fancy himself as a bit of a geezer started to show the other guys what he thought was some rather amusing porn— unfortunately he hit the wrong guys — one of them walked off, one said ‘don’t you think that’s a bit inappropriate with wives here’ and other one was clearly plain embarrassed. I just wish men would ‘man up’ to these dicks but usually they just join in like sheep

@StripyGiraffes
No low standards here. Have just worked with lots and lots of men over the years. All of them pretend to be someone else in front of their OHs. Not saying it's right.

[quote mathanxiety]@saraclara, pointing out on this thread that there is sometimes misandry and ageism on MN is an attempt to shame women into silence.

It's saying 'Only if you're completely innocent of all isms yourself can you complain about misogyny'.[/quote]
Quite the opposite. It's saying 'think about what you post about men and older people, and if you see others being misandrist or ageist, call them out on it instead of cheering them on'

We should all absolutely complain about misogyny and racism. Just spare me the hypocrisy of simultaneously making generalisations about men and the elderly.

@LimeRedBanana

It's really not. All these things should be called out. And yes, some of us do call out the less popular -isms on here. But the vast majority don't, and another proportion will actively complain if we do.

Good on you for trying to bring down Mumsnet from within @saraclara. And for continuing to hang out here and post when MN is so clearly against your own values and principles.

OP - not sure what to suggest really, in light of your recent posts. You clearly don’t feel able to talk to your DH about it, so I guess sweeping it under the carpet is the only option.

See my post above.

And no, I can't talk to my DH about it because he's dead.

I have no idea why you think I'm sweeping bad behaviour by men under the carpet. Where individuals or groups of them are guilty of it of course they need calling out on it. But so does anyone, any sex, any age, any colour, when they express generalisations about any other group.

Good on you for trying to bring down Mumsnet from within @saraclara. And for continuing to hang out here and post when MN is so clearly against your own values and principles. wink

Woah. You're actually saying that if I don't agree with the MN hive mind, I should leave, instead of challenging it? Do you not see the irony here?
So if I don't like being around a group of men with their sexist attitudes, instead of challenging it, I should just leave?

A lot of guys of all ages are like sheep— be it yobbery amongst football fans some of whom don’t seem to have moved on from the 70s and are now in their 50s and 60s and younger ones with their ‘bro’ type ‘dodgy banter’ amongst each other— I think it’s a kind of tribal ‘needing to belong’ kind of thing— I kid you not we went out with 3 other couples and one of the guys who is a coming up 60 heavyweight professional but also seems to fancy himself as a bit of a geezer started to show the other guys what he thought was some rather amusing porn— unfortunately he hit the wrong guys — one of them walked off, one said ‘don’t you think that’s a bit inappropriate with wives here’ and other one was clearly plain embarrassed. I just wish men would ‘man up’ to these dicks but usually they just join in like sheep

Interesting post and good to hear some men are embarrassed/unimpressed by this. I discovered that my husband had been watching porn (secretly). When I confronted him he went on to tell me that a man in his friendship group was booking a hotel room secretly so he could watch porn without his wife/partner finding out. This group of men he had met up with socially had obviously been discussing their viewing habits. I'm struggling with this...the secrecy aspect and the objectification of women and these 'discussions'. I now see my husband in a different light (for the worse). I was also told on one of these forums that most blokes watch porn so just get over it but I married him not knowing about all this stuff (was a lot younger and naïve about all of this) and now left to deal with my feelings around it (have dcs too). As one poster said, porn has a lot to do with this.

Hope you're doing okay op. Have you managed to gain any clarity about the situation?

And no, I can't talk to my DH about it because he's dead.

I have no idea why you think I'm sweeping bad behaviour by men under the carpet. Where individuals or groups of them are guilty of it of course they need calling out on it. But so does anyone, any sex, any age, any colour, when they express generalisations about any other group.

That comment was directed to the OP - in fact, the para started with the word ‘OP - …’ so it should have been reasonably obvious.

I just always find it ironic when people have a massive gripe about a place - in this case MN - and whinge about its users and their behaviour …. but just can’t seem to stay away.

Mumsnet is heavily populated by women. Many (by no means all) of them in relationships with sub-standard men. Many of them feminists who recognise the social constructs that we all live in, which benefit men as a group, and disadvantage women.

You can carry on calling out ‘misandry’ (auto-correct doesn’t even recognise the word), but misogyny is, and always will be the more significant problem for women.

@MasterBeth 🙄 yes because whether or not he's looked at some photos is the issue here.

Quite the opposite. It's saying 'think about what you post about men and older people, and if you see others being misandrist or ageist, call them out on it instead of cheering them on'

We should all absolutely complain about misogyny and racism. Just spare me the hypocrisy of simultaneously making generalisations about men and the elderly.

@saraclara

Here's my answer, which I posted upthread:
When the balance of power in this very unequal society, and when men's sense of superiority over women is enforced and reinforced by 'banter' such as this, then it behoves us as women to speak out about it every time it happens, to empower each other to speak out about it, and to stop thinking we need to be responsible for solving the problems of everyone else in society before we tackle the enormous problems that hold us back.

Women need to centre ourselves. We spent thousands of years not doing that, and when we finally woke up we experienced massive opposition, and still face it. Everything by way of rights that we have achieved as women has been fought for, long and hard, and we have many battles still to fight. Our society is nowhere near where it should be for women and girls. Let's stop pretending that other people have worse problems.

The simple truth is that men as a class have it far better than we do in this life, and that nobody but ourselves cares enough to fix that. We need to tackle that problem first because it directly impacts every single one of us and all of our daughters.

We need to stop wringing our hands about all the other isms and expecting that they are our problems to solve. They are not. Our efforts must focus on ourselves.

If you see rampant ageism and racism and other forms of hypocrisy on MN, tackle that yourself. But do not take cheap shots at women who are focused on misogyny, and do not aim your ire at MN, one of the only places on the internet where women are not booed and jeered and insulted into silence.

If you want to see the real world in action, go and join a few other fora and see for yourself the seething hatred against women.

@mathanxiety

Quite the opposite. It's saying 'think about what you post about men and older people, and if you see others being misandrist or ageist, call them out on it instead of cheering them on'

We should all absolutely complain about misogyny and racism. Just spare me the hypocrisy of simultaneously making generalisations about men and the elderly.

@saraclara

Here's my answer, which I posted upthread:
When the balance of power in this very unequal society, and when men's sense of superiority over women is enforced and reinforced by 'banter' such as this, then it behoves us as women to speak out about it every time it happens, to empower each other to speak out about it, and to stop thinking we need to be responsible for solving the problems of everyone else in society before we tackle the enormous problems that hold us back.

Women need to centre ourselves. We spent thousands of years not doing that, and when we finally woke up we experienced massive opposition, and still face it. Everything by way of rights that we have achieved as women has been fought for, long and hard, and we have many battles still to fight. Our society is nowhere near where it should be for women and girls. Let's stop pretending that other people have worse problems.

The simple truth is that men as a class have it far better than we do in this life, and that nobody but ourselves cares enough to fix that. We need to tackle that problem first because it directly impacts every single one of us and all of our daughters.

We need to stop wringing our hands about all the other isms and expecting that they are our problems to solve. They are not. Our efforts must focus on ourselves.

If you see rampant ageism and racism and other forms of hypocrisy on MN, tackle that yourself. But do not take cheap shots at women who are focused on misogyny, and do not aim your ire at MN, one of the only places on the internet where women are not booed and jeered and insulted into silence.

If you want to see the real world in action, go and join a few other fora and see for yourself the seething hatred against women.

There’s a fair amount of seething hatred from women towards other women too. Let’s not forget that. The wrongs that have been done to me in my life have mostly all been caused by other women, not men. I do agree that there is a lot of misogyny in the world and that women are not on a level playing field to men. It’s a shame some women are unpleasant to each other too however.