AIBU to ask if this is cultural appropriation or appreciation?

[HappyDays40]

Ever since the death of George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter movement came into a more public sphere in the UK. Im looking at the world in a different way. Trying to consciously notice things that I may have said in the past which although I thought were showing an interest in other cultures are now termed as micro aggressions as they "other" people and reinforce that white as the default "normal".
An example of this is " where are you from?" Although this was not said with an aggressive tone I totally cringe when my friend looked at me pointedly and said Manchester. What I was asking about was her cultural heritage and I could have worded this better and won't do it again.
I also realise now what the terms white privilege and white savoiur mean. In the past I have spoken up for my friend if they have been abused and have taken charge when my friend has been perfectly able to speak for themselves. I am learning to stand with not stand on behalf of people unless they ask me to.
Its my responsibility to reflect and thinksnthings through not for people to educate me. Yes it makes me feel uncomfortable facing myself and questioning my past actions but I feels its the only way for change. So here is the AIBU bit: My son has a Carribean themed day at school today the children have gone in in themed clothes yellows, reds and greens. The children have been learning Bob Marley songs and generally all about different Carribean foods and cultures which I think I have felt okay with.
This morning when I took him in Reggae msuci was blasting forth from the speakers and the teachers who are white were outside welcoming the children in.

The children were having a great time. There are some children in the class who are black and one dad took one look at the whole thing dropped his child off and as we walked out he said he is going to complain to the school as this is cultural appropriation. I dont know him so I couldn't ask him about it and Im trying ro get my own thoughts in order.What do you guys think?

@hoppinggreen 🙄

@Nengineer

The disckheaddery on this thread is strong. Imagine having to sit and look for offence in everything. Go out into the sunshine people. Get a job, read a book, make some friends.

It’s not ‘dickheadery’ to take issue with this. I’m not saying I’d go in to school shouting the odds and calling staff racist. But I’d definitely use it as an opportunity to raise the issue with the school of how they can make these cultural celebrations more meaningful and less stereotyped.

You might not care, but this matters to others. If my kids’ school was doing one special day to celebrate their culture and Bob Marley and the rasta flag were all they could muster up, I’d be miffed.

Disclaimer: I'm not a teacher, however I would think that starting the day off with something that a lot of the DCs might be familiar with (like Bob Marley) would be a good introduction to talk about different types of music. In the same way as you might get children to list all the sports they know before introducing a brand new sport?

I think you need to see how the rest of the day pans out. If they've already had parents in doing cooking then that's a good sign, no?

But without wanting to add to the whataboutery, if I turned up on Scottish day to the sound of the bagpipes and all the teachers standing in kilts, I would probably be a little bit WTF about it. as I often was on Burns day at DS's Scottish school in Scotland

@EssentialHummus

It was the people being judged! So Italy the stereotype and Caribbean theme racist

I'm glad u see it as stereotyping because alot of people have said its rascist!

Which is what I struggle with! And obviously my your and you're 🤦‍♀️

I just don't see the racism in the Caribbean day for the kids especially since no one knows what else the lesson entailed

I'm an ethnic minority and when DCs' school celebrate it i laugh at the crudeness and inaccuracy of some things - but i appreciate the school making the effort to raise awareness of different heritages including mine. Most of all, the children are engaged to learn geography, history etc through artwork, dressing up, trying new foods (that is not at all representative..) and having fun.

I'm in the UK. If i were in my home country, i can't imagine what they would they do on St George's Day or similar. They'd go with stereotypes too. What would you find insulting? Afternoon tea? Hot cross buns? Knights and crusades (sensitive stuff here)? Playing music like rolling stone instead of Beatles?

Maybe i'm a shame to my race and the only one who doesn't think it's racism. Better to speak to the school and raise suggestions on what could be changed. It's hard to be so nuanced to specific cultures especially for primary school, and when they plan 10,000 themed days...

@worktrip thanks I still think about the way I must have made my friend feel. The lovely thing is she didn't say anything other than one word and I knew I was wrong, we are still friends years later.

Its relevant when you're determined to make out these cultures are over sensitive about racism

Isn't 'white people' just as bad? It's just as much of a stereotype. Why can't we just treat people as lovely, unique individuals.

@AwaAnBileYerHeid

Would it be racist or cultural appropriation if the theme was Scotland and they played bagpipes, wore tartan kilts and had haggis for lunch? Or is it only certain races whose offence is catered to?

Yes, that would be wrong too

I think people love to take offense without actually wanting to do anything themselves. If the father was of Caribbean origin and heard there was a Caribbean day coming up at school why didn't he offer to do something? Why didn't he say I have something to offer here and step up and and get involved? Why didn't he go up to the teachers on the day and say I know this is 'caribbean music for the masses' but I have some more varied and authentic things I can nip home and get if you're interested'. I'd imagine it's because he's rather complain about what a shit job other people are doing while doing sweet FA himself.

He also doesn't know what he's talking about because cultural appropriation is where you take someone elses ideas or practices and don't reference them - ie when big design houses take traditional African patterns and present them as their own design. The school is not pretending they've written Bob Marley songs or invented Caribbean recipes so it's not cultural appropriation.

It's just meant to be a fun day for little kids. It makes perfect sense to talk to the relevant people in the community - but you put out an email and often no one responds, they might be working or shy or think someone else will do it, or mean to volunteer and forget or be busy or say they'll do it and then not turn up. It would be lovely to arrange for relevant speakers to come who know how to engage little children and keep things on their level and make it accessible but guess what - most people really aren't able to do that, it's a really difficult skill to talk to a group of 20/30 4 year olds and keep them engaged for even a few minutes. Parent engagement on any level is often really, really hard, I've been on preschool and school committees and getting people involved is really hard work. So that is why schools do these fun little things at this age and why if people think they can do it better they should step up and volunteer.

So we actually have pages and pages of slagging off a school without first knowing what activities have taken place?

And last time I looked, Bob Marley was from Jamaica which is in the Caribbean, and he is very much associated with Rastafarianism which is very much a feature of Jamaican culture? Of course, Bob Marley isn’t the only musician to come out of the Caribbean and there is way more to Jamaican culture than the small minority of Rastas….but it’s all in keeping with the theme, surely?

And how much do you think primary children are going to absorb in a school day? There are suggestions for different types of music, histories, literature, people….how can everything be covered?! Do you want schools to attempt to do this stuff or not bother because it brings in a slew of negativity before lunchtime?

I am mixed race and these days are usually fine in my book.

They need use some of the more exciting, colourful parts of our culture to spark the kids interests. They are usually the bits we are stereotyped for.

You ask what you should do as a white woman? How about actually find out more about what they are teaching. Make an informed decision. If you don't feel you have enough knowledge to make an informed decision, speak to people who do.

They have involved local people from the communities they are celebrating. So chances are the snippet you and this man saw, is not enough to say 'its cultural appropriation'.

Our school has had interest weeks on all 3 places my family are from and local people did from those backgrounds got involved. They were happy to be involved, helped with the whole weeks learning points, suggested additions or advised which things that weren't important and to remove. And also some stuff that's very popular from the cultures, that is stuff that kids recognise.

If people from that community have been involved and happy, then it's appreciation. Do you not think the people who have helped them, wouldn't have had this cross their mind? Wondering if the school are doing something good or something inappropriate before getting involved.

That parent could be just wrong, not asked what the schools aims were or know the detail. Just because we aren't white, doesn't mean we are always correct. And even if after learning the detail, if he still thinks it's appropriation. That's just ones person's opinion. The rest of the people living close by, with he cultural background may not agree with him.

Nothing you have said here, says cultural appropriation. It's say cultural celebration in a way that gets kids excited and engaged.

I don’t see the issue. You said the children had been learning about Caribbean food and cultures as well as Bob Marley songs. Today they were playing some reggae music, should they not have played it? White teachers welcoming the children- what’s wrong with that?!

@Jaxhog what are you talking about? ‘White people’ is a description just as ‘black people’ or ‘Asian people’.

Listening to reggae isn't cultural appropriation, anyone can enjoy any type of music. Learning about countries, the culture, history, music is just fine too - people can get a bit ott on cultural appropriation now. I have several good Asian friends and it's the done thing to wear a sari to events even if you are white British, they call it cultural appreciation!!!

Next you will tell me I'm not allowed to cook Italian or French food or wear Chanel/Armani as it's appropriation ...

As long as you don't pretend you are another race or take the mickey it's fine

@Tal45

I think people love to take offense without actually wanting to do anything themselves. If the father was of Caribbean origin and heard there was a Caribbean day coming up at school why didn't he offer to do something? Why didn't he say I have something to offer here and step up and and get involved? Why didn't he go up to the teachers on the day and say I know this is 'caribbean music for the masses' but I have some more varied and authentic things I can nip home and get if you're interested'. I'd imagine it's because he's rather complain about what a shit job other people are doing while doing sweet FA himself.

He also doesn't know what he's talking about because cultural appropriation is where you take someone elses ideas or practices and don't reference them - ie when big design houses take traditional African patterns and present them as their own design. The school is not pretending they've written Bob Marley songs or invented Caribbean recipes so it's not cultural appropriation.

It's just meant to be a fun day for little kids. It makes perfect sense to talk to the relevant people in the community - but you put out an email and often no one responds, they might be working or shy or think someone else will do it, or mean to volunteer and forget or be busy or say they'll do it and then not turn up. It would be lovely to arrange for relevant speakers to come who know how to engage little children and keep things on their level and make it accessible but guess what - most people really aren't able to do that, it's a really difficult skill to talk to a group of 20/30 4 year olds and keep them engaged for even a few minutes. Parent engagement on any level is often really, really hard, I've been on preschool and school committees and getting people involved is really hard work. So that is why schools do these fun little things at this age and why if people think they can do it better they should step up and volunteer.

This ^

@BrozTito

No I'm not! There are mixed race posters on this thread saying they don't find it offensive!
And you're saying it's offensive!

Your bringing racism into the pot and stirring it

I'd need to see and would likely ask for a wider picture of the day, that snapshot is a bit stereotypical (wouldn't really call it appropriation, but mostly because that term has become very blurry), but I could see how it could fit into a wider picture with primary age children where this sort of thing can be part of a set-up though these things will always have their limits.

With the 'where are you from'/'cultural heritage' question - yeah, your friend handled it great and as did you when you read her reaction quickly. We all make mistakes. For me, as a pp said, I've learned to read intent there quickly though from me you'd get very different answers depending on how you worded it. Where I'm from (or even where my parents are from or name or other ways people dance around it) doesn't say much about my cultural backgrounds.

Again, the US isnt made up of 15 different countries, and theres more culture in a tramps hat

No, it has a relationship somewhat similar as the UK does with its Crown dependency with hundreds of different nations within its borders.

Some have more official recognition than others, but if we're talking about reconsidering racist attitudes and everything, then what we consider a nation or culture might also be up for question too. It's actually a large part of the issues with 'Caribbean Days' and 'Africa Days' - it's not just the many different recognized nations, but the groups within them. Nation-states are a pretty weak way of defining any culture.

Culture is the ideas, customs, social behaviours, and creations of a group. That you look down on it doesn't mean a group doesn't have any of those.

I’m amazed you have the ability to know what’s going on inside the school
Throughout the rest of the day, after only having experienced the first 5 minutes of their day. You don’t know what they’re being taught right now. You don’t know what they will learn today. I honestly think you need to get a grip. The school have consulted people of that heritage in their plans - obviously as they have authentic food , at the very least. Get a massive grip people. School cannot teach every single part of every single thing. You are perfectly entitled to follow up in this lesson at home should you wish to do so. Atop looking for bloody problems and issues on every goddam thing in the world. Cultural appreciation/ appropriation. Who really truly gives a shit?!? I like this thing therefore I wear /use/whatever this thing. What’s the ducking problem? Honestly. Stop shit stirring.

I am really surprised that a parent from that culture used the phrase 'cultural appropriation'.

Because its not. It only would have been if the school or teachers were trying to portray they were from one of these cultures, profit off it or make fun of it. CA is also pharae more used by very young people or white people, thinking they know.

But also because he clearly he isn't involved enough, to know wether what the school was doing was appropriate or not. He saw a tiny snippet.

Just seems an odd phrase to be used, loud enough for someone else to hear, when it's not the right word or and they donr know enough about it.

But @HappyDays40, if he is complaining you don't need to do anything unless he asked you to. He is complaining. He can speak for himself, if he wants people to support it he will speak up again.

They've been studying the Caribbean as a topic in primary school for ages, my dd did it about 15 years ago.
They looked at tourism (benefits and disadvantages), culture, food, all sorts. What's wrong with listening to some music typical of the region?

If they were studying Russian culture it wouldn't be cultural appropriation if they listened to Russian folk dance tunes, or classical ballet music, would it?

Seems to me that white people are considered to be in the wrong whatever they do.

@AwaAnBileYerHeid

Would it be racist or cultural appropriation if the theme was Scotland and they played bagpipes, wore tartan kilts and had haggis for lunch? Or is it only certain races whose offence is catered to?

@AwaAnBileYerHeid

This whataboutery is hilarious to me.

First point: if you are concerned about the way that Scottish people are treated by the wider world then why don't you do something about it? The reason racism is such a big talking point at the moment is because those who suffer racism are spending day after day relentlessly campaigning for their rights. So if you are concerned about prejudice towards Scottish people then I'd suggest getting off your arse and doing something about it.

Second point: I would actually think that a Scottish day that just focused on bagpipes and haggis etc. was ill-thought and only focusing on stereotypes.

@ThanksIGotItInMorrisons why so angry? We are just having a conversation. I was just saying im trying to gather my thoughts. The dad who was angry used the term appropriation and it just me think about things and the terms we use.

Yes, it's hard to tell what they did all day long from what happened as they entered the school.