Can you be a good person if you pay for sex? [Content warning: descriptions of sexual abuse]

[Lave]

Do you think there's a grey area or are all men who pay for sex abusive?

[quote UpstreamSwimmer]@youvegottenminuteslynn

It's a silly question. I wouldn't want my daughter to do something that can carry a substantial risk and is looked down upon by society. But so what? I also wouldn't want my daughter (or son) to be a rubbish collector, does that mean I'm a bad person for employing the services of binmen?

I appreciate there are dirty jobs that I wouldn't want to do, and the only reason people in those jobs do them, is to get paid. Does that preclude me from paying them to do the work for me?[/quote]
I'm not following your logic there.

Your response would make sense if I said "you're a punter, but would you be happy for your daughter to be a prostitute for other men?" (So equivalent to you still using the services / role your child would hypothetically provide.

But your response that you wouldn't want your daughter to do something, even if they were happy to do it, implies you do inherently believe it to be wrong. Because as you said, it's dangerous. It's dangerous and abusive and despite knowing that you say it's ok with you if the prostitute really is happy doing it. Just as long as they aren't your child, eh?

It's a silly question. I wouldn't want my daughter to do something that can carry a substantial risk and is looked down upon by society.

But if she wanted to do it - which so many prostitutes do? They do it because it’s their vocation or it’s just an easy way to make money - you’d be OK with it and supportive?

I was in the ‘shades of grey’ camp at the beginning of this thread, but have to admit it’s your posts on this thread that are making me feel that actually it really is more black and white.

I’m sure that’s not your intention.

I think the daughter etc question is so well known know that get that it has no impact

And of course there are men (and women) who are happy to prostitute their daughters.

And plenty of people with no children around.

The rote answer if no I wouldn't want her in the army/ down a mine etc either is the standard response.

Feel sick reading this.

If you are ok being a rapist, then maybe keep that to yourself.

Personally I wouldn't wipe my shit covered shoes on you.

The rote answer if no I wouldn't want her in the army/ down a mine etc either is the standard response.

Well yes, but the crystal clear takeaway is, nonetheless: no they absolutely would not want their own daughter to be a prostitute, even in their worst nightmare.

Upthread said it was no different to giving a massage etc.

Loads of daughters would be happy to give their dad a massage if they knew how.

So logically being happy to have sex with him is aok.

And best think about family doing stuff for you- it's often really cheap or free!

Upstream?

@LimeRedBanana

The rote answer if no I wouldn't want her in the army/ down a mine etc either is the standard response.

Well yes, but the crystal clear takeaway is, nonetheless: no they absolutely would not want their own daughter to be a prostitute, even in their worst nightmare.

Always. It's the sex work equivalent of NIMBY.

If you ask if THEY would sell sex to men. I've never seen the answer yes.

@NiceGerbil

If you ask if THEY would sell sex to men. I've never seen the answer yes.

THEY don't have to sink so low don't you know.

Absolutely have no idea of the desperation of trauma/poverty.

@NiceGerbil

' He can gain access to her body (hands) and that's ok. It's even consensual if he derives sexual pleasure from being massaged, as long as it's only a professional massage.'

I've seen lots of things including on here with women saying they hate the men who come for a massage, get a hard on and then rather than embarrassment are keen for it to be noticed. The ones who try to turn it into a sexual situation.

Women giving massages are generally alone with their client.

They can experience fear for obvious reasons.

Or annoyance, revulsion. If it happens a fair bit I'd imagine it could impact view of men in general.

In a situation where a man has paid for a professional massage, why the fuck would he even be looking for a happy ending? It's not on the menu. She is s trained masseuse. Why would it occur to a man to think right in having a massage. Oh I've got a hard on. Hmm. I'll see if she's amenable to wanking me off.

Your example makes men look even worse. You didn't think that through did you. Your idea that chancing your luck with a woman because you're horny. Prioritises the males 'right' to try it on. And ignores the very possible outcome of the woman being fucked off, horrified, scared etc.

Try again.

There are many massage parlours where you can choose to get a simple massage, even excellent ones, and at the end there's an option of a happy ending tacked on. Usually the masseuse/masseur will offer it of their own volition, in hope of getting a tip. We're not talking about medical massages where there is never an option of happy endings.

In the example of the aforementioned massage parlours, someone may choose to get a nice massage and even as a side bonus derive sexual pleasure from being touched by a pretty woman, yet that is considered consensual. Yet the last 'happy' minute tacked on willingly for a price is somehow rape?

Your argument just doesn't hold water.

Your argument just doesn't hold water.

Oh sweet Lord. Did you actually just post that, at the end of that post, with a straight face?

Why would you be so against your daughter offering that to men 'of her own volition, in hope of getting a tip' then OP? If she was a masseuse, genuinely happy to do it and didn't care what society thinks? After all, you don't think it's inherently wrong or that different to other jobs and a massage parlour is somewhere you would presumably seem less dangerous than offering sexual services at private residences? What would be your issue with your own daughter doing it then?

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Why would you be so against your daughter offering that to men 'of her own volition, in hope of getting a tip' then OP? If she was a masseuse, genuinely happy to do it and didn't care what society thinks? After all, you don't think it's inherently wrong or that different to other jobs and a massage parlour is somewhere you would presumably seem less dangerous than offering sexual services at private residences? What would be your issue with your own daughter doing it then?

This was to @UpstreamSwimmer in response to their latest post.

The way I understand it, the anti-prostitution brigade has basically 3 arguments:

1. It's an industry that has a good chance of a service provider doing so under coercion, so how can one allow themselves to use this service?
2. Even if they are not being coerced, consent obtained for money isn't consent. Especially of the provider is desperate for money.
3. One can't consent to providing a service which might harm them, so by definition prostitution is non-consensual.

As far as I can tell, these are the only actual arguments. If I've missed any, please elaborate.

To the above I counter:

1. Nail bars (among others) are also an industry with a high chance of service providers doing so under coercion, yet women, even feminists, still frequent them.

1. All work, be it prestigious or degrading, easy or hard, safe or risky is done in return for money. And as long as the service provider is doing so out of their free will, we consider it consensual. Even when the provider is desperate for money.

1. We do allow people to venture into services that carry high risks of harm. One such example is the army. Another is professional sports.

'A man can pay a woman to massage him and this is considered consensual. Even though she is only touching him because she is getting paid (and probably needs the money), that is still considered consensual.

He can gain access to her body (hands) and that's ok. It's even consensual if he derives sexual pleasure from being massaged, as long as it's only a professional massage. But the moment she gives him a 'happy ending' for extra money she is somehow being sexually abused and that consent can't be bought?'

Your post says nothing about this being in a massage parlour or venue where sex i acts are on the menu as it were.

When I read professional massage I think of well. A person who earns their living from massage in the context that phrase would mean to most.

A spa in a beauty salon, hotel, spa hotel etc.
A sports massage.
In therapeutic contexts. Physio for example.

What in your words have I missed, that would have made me understand this is in a context where sex acts are to be expected/ not unusual?

Glad to see you back by the way. I had some questions that you haven't responded to...

So in short.

Would you asking assuming you're a man, get money by having sex with men who could hurt you, if you needed the money for something a loved one needs?

Why do you think it's reasonable to ask a female professional masseuse for a hand job.
Do you think it's reasonable for the man being massaged to be asked if he will let/ how much for her male friend on the desk come in and fuck him?

Do you see the aid workers in Haiti who 'partied' with local women during a humanitarian disaster, as generously giving them money for food or

The second one you have... Well you have decided it's in s context where sex acts are generally on the menu so you don't need to answer that.

My friend is a professional mobile masseuse.

She doesn't answer adds asking about her "services " for exactly this reason.

The hours I have spent sitting in her car outside customers houses, having taken her table in. Just to make sure she is safe.

Filthy, dirty men, still try it on! Yuck.

So upthread.

Would you asking assuming you're a man, get money by having sex with men who could hurt you, if you needed the money for something a loved one needs?

Do you see the aid workers in Haiti who 'partied' with local women during a humanitarian disaster, as generously giving them money for food or other things their loved ones need

In countries where it is legal for children to work at various ages under 18. Whether full time, Saturday job. As a child model or actor. That makes it legitimate for them to sell sexual 'services' as work is work? And this work does not afaik have much in the way of health and safety laws or qualifications anywhere afaik so it's not the same as quarrying or flying s plane etc. And I mean some would argue (not me obv) that it's a great job for anyone under 18 as there's lots of demand, and it's not as horrible as some jobs. In countries where it's that or hunt through a rubbish tip for things to sell. Then being paid well to perform a service no different to a massage would be a really lucky break surely.

@Megasausagehead

My friend is a professional mobile masseuse.

She doesn't answer adds asking about her "services " for exactly this reason.

The hours I have spent sitting in her car outside customers houses, having taken her table in. Just to make sure she is safe.

Filthy, dirty men, still try it on! Yuck.

Ugh this is so depressing isn't it? Your poor friend.

A friend if mine has erectile dysfunction. He "uses" sex workers to learn how to perform again.

Another friend of mine is a sec worker. She absolutely loves her job. (She was previously a doctor ). Genuinely she has a spring in het step that had been missing for a long time
Not for anyone to judge

1. It's irrelevant. But just by the way, plenty of prostitutes don't do anal, which is what I'd have to do as a man.

1. 'Generosity' is irrelevant. Is someone being 'generous' when they buy an apple from a greengrocer, or are they simply engaging in a mutually beneficial exchange? The key question is whether it's consensual.

1. Age of consent can and should be different for different activities. A 14 year old can legally consent to doing a paper run, but the can't consent to joining the army.

@maddy68

A friend if mine has erectile dysfunction. He "uses" sex workers to learn how to perform again.

Another friend of mine is a sec worker. She absolutely loves her job. (She was previously a doctor ). Genuinely she has a spring in het step that had been missing for a long time
Not for anyone to judge

RTFT nobody is judging the women.

Upstream sounds just like Stamford hill