Can you be a good person if you pay for sex? [Content warning: descriptions of sexual abuse]

[Lave]

Do you think there's a grey area or are all men who pay for sex abusive?

Good points, @NiceGerbil.
That poster claiming 1 in 5 punters are women! What nonsense.
Or it's just the same as working as a builder or in a supermarket!

Just to double check I found the post

'Ive seen estimations of up to 20% of users being women in some areas. I dont think the same systematic and cultural imbalances are there in that form but its still exploitation'

1 in 5. No other way to read that!

Note you state it's still exploitation.

This is the more general point.

That the comparison drawn (not by you)

Is as Apparently loads of women do it too (pretty bloody unlikely)

Then why is the comparison invariably

What about women and nail bars and exploitation

And never

What about these (hordes of) women paying for sex and exploitation.

Even in situations in the UK where women were being procured for sex with men in various residential settings

Part of the defence from at least one care org was that risk assessments were carried out for the resident due to their potential vulnerability

No mention of risk assessments on the women due to their potential vulnerability

Iirc one young man who was being provided with women for sex, had concerning behaviours including a fixation with throttling.

I mean FFS.

And that's an org that is a provider of a bunch of care homes.

If it doesn't occur to them then how the hell would it occur to random men. And how in earth could they find out anyway.

From PN there are examples where he knew she was being forced and went ahead anyway.

The idea that men who pay for sex are generally lovely men who are just lonely etc is just an idea.

The reason women and sadly loads of girls find the idea that most men will be kind respectful etc extremely unlikely. Is because we know what loads of men are like when it comes to sexual behaviour towards us just in ordinary life.

Everything you've said has been spot on, NiceGerbil.

I mentioned nail bars, because it's an industry that is known to have a substantial percentage of people who are forced to work there, yet women happily get their nails done.

Anytime there's a thread like this, you get the same old chestnut "You can't buy consent."
Why? Because I said so...

A man can pay a woman to massage him and this is considered consensual. Even though she is only touching him because she is getting paid (and probably needs the money), that is still considered consensual.

He can gain access to her body (hands) and that's ok. It's even consensual if he derives sexual pleasure from being massaged, as long as it's only a professional massage. But the moment she gives him a 'happy ending' for extra money she is somehow being sexually abused and that consent can't be bought?

I means come on, listen to yourself.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Interestingly still no takers from those ok with prostitution in principle re whether they would genuinely be happy for their daughter to be a prostitute even if she was doing so willingly?

Any thoughts on this @UpstreamSwimmer?

@UpstreamSwimmer

I mentioned nail bars, because it's an industry that is known to have a substantial percentage of people who are forced to work there, yet women happily get their nails done.

Anytime there's a thread like this, you get the same old chestnut "You can't buy consent."
Why? Because I said so...

A man can pay a woman to massage him and this is considered consensual. Even though she is only touching him because she is getting paid (and probably needs the money), that is still considered consensual.

He can gain access to her body (hands) and that's ok. It's even consensual if he derives sexual pleasure from being massaged, as long as it's only a professional massage. But the moment she gives him a 'happy ending' for extra money she is somehow being sexually abused and that consent can't be bought?

I means come on, listen to yourself.

There's quite a difference between rubbing somebodies back and having their penis penetrate your vagina though isn't there.

You really don't see how much more invasive and potentially traumatizing the latter is?

Christ.

If we want to dish out ridiculous analogies why don't we compare sex workers to female podiatrists or chiropractors while we're at it? They're paid to touch the customer too.

I'll tell you why that hasn't been mentioned, because it's bloody ridiculous.

Neither of the above OR professional masseuses are likely to get PTSD from their job.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

It's a silly question. I wouldn't want my daughter to do something that can carry a substantial risk and is looked down upon by society. But so what? I also wouldn't want my daughter (or son) to be a rubbish collector, does that mean I'm a bad person for employing the services of binmen?

I appreciate there are dirty jobs that I wouldn't want to do, and the only reason people in those jobs do them, is to get paid. Does that preclude me from paying them to do the work for me?

Are you not supporting the industry by choosing to be a sex worker, though?

Men who know that these services exist will continue to seek them out, and next time the demand may be met by the pimp using somebody who didn't 'choose' to become a sex worker and was instead trafficked.

@SourAppleChew

Are you not supporting the industry by choosing to be a sex worker, though?

Men who know that these services exist will continue to seek them out, and next time the demand may be met by the pimp using somebody who didn't 'choose' to become a sex worker and was instead trafficked.

I'm not sure who your post was to but I for one didn't actively choose to be a sex worker.

Of course men will continue to seek out there services because our society is misogynistic and men will have you believe that sex is as vital as air, they simply can't go without it.

If you're single and lonely then join online dating. If you're single and 'in the mood' then relieve yourself.

I have been both of the above at times in my life and never had the inclination to pay somebody to have sex with me.

'
He can gain access to her body (hands) and that's ok. It's even consensual if he derives sexual pleasure from being massaged, as long as it's only a professional massage.'

I've seen lots of things including on here with women saying they hate the men who come for a massage, get a hard on and then rather than embarrassment are keen for it to be noticed. The ones who try to turn it into a sexual situation.

Women giving massages are generally alone with their client.

They can experience fear for obvious reasons.

Or annoyance, revulsion. If it happens a fair bit I'd imagine it could impact view of men in general.

In a situation where a man has paid for a professional massage, why the fuck would he even be looking for a happy ending? It's not on the menu. She is s trained masseuse. Why would it occur to a man to think right in having a massage. Oh I've got a hard on. Hmm. I'll see if she's amenable to wanking me off.

Your example makes men look even worse. You didn't think that through did you. Your idea that chancing your luck with a woman because you're horny. Prioritises the males 'right' to try it on. And ignores the very possible outcome of the woman being fucked off, horrified, scared etc.

Try again.

@UpstreamSwimmer .. sure.. it's exactly the same to be a refuse collector or a sex worker ... what's so bad about being a bloody bin man anyway .. ??
But more to the point how many bin men do you see in the early morning covered in bruises , underweight and looking for the next lot of drugs do they can face the day ..

' man can pay a woman to massage him and this is considered consensual. Even though she is only touching him because she is getting paid (and probably needs the money), that is still considered consensual.'

Also.

In that situation. A male masseuse gets an erection and offers the man on the table X money to penetrate him anally. This is a standard professional massage maybe for a sports injury at a gym.

That is not a problem? The man on the table should be cool with that?

Or if the female masseuse said my friend is outside he'd love to get laid can he fuck you?

Or she pulls out a huge dildo and asks if she can stick it up his bum.

That all sounds reasonable?

@SourAppleChew

Are you not supporting the industry by choosing to be a sex worker, though?

Men who know that these services exist will continue to seek them out, and next time the demand may be met by the pimp using somebody who didn't 'choose' to become a sex worker and was instead trafficked.

No. No criticism from me around the women (and girls and men and boys) all over the world earning money this way.

The demand is from men.
If men didn't want to pay for sex then it wouldn't matter how many were selling.

Given the terrible circs and risks of those who men pay to fuck all over the world all the time. It's crass to lay blame at their door.

Although of course plenty of areas criminalise, stigmatise etc them and not the men. Funny that isn't it.

"In some areas' was the key phrase you are choosing to ignore, as well as the fact I also called it rape

Would I fuck random men for cash in extreme circs? A humanitarian disaster? To feed my children?

Would I do it in less extreme circs if I had no way of feeding them, paying for medicine, etc. If there were no social support etc.

Of course. I'd do anything for my children.

Would most men?

I'm not so sure. Men in those circs tend to turn to other things- robbing etc. How many would turn themselves over to a man they don't know, maybe an armed one (men are more evenly matched when it comes to physical force). And say yes for a few quid for some bread?

I mean I don't know I'm guessing many would do anything but that.

Upstream if you're male and in a really bad situation would you sell sex to men for a bit of money? For something someone you loved needed?

'. I wouldn't want my daughter to do something that can carry a substantial risk and is looked down upon by society'

Hmmm.

I think a lot of women have a, there but for the grace of God approach. Concern, sympathy, empathy.

Yes some judge of course but it's a mistake to assume women in general look down on women who sell sex.

Men on the other hand... The old good woman with value / woman with no value.

Interesting.

Virgins/ who*es.

A common phase.

Still a common attitude in men.

This thread- the underlying attitudes always start to come out.

'Men who know that these services exist will continue to seek them out,'

Revealing.
Men. Not some men. Just men. WILL continue but only IF they know these services exist. Are there any men who haven't heard of prostitution?

So it's the women's fault for doing this because OBVIOUSLY men in general (not a subset WILL come.

Big assumptions about men there and ones some would say are not complimentary.

No. Someone that pays for sex can never be a "good person". Yes it is abusive.

So in short.

Would you asking assuming you're a man, get money by having sex with men who could hurt you, if you needed the money for something a loved one needs?

Why do you think it's reasonable to ask a female professional masseuse for a hand job.
Do you think it's reasonable for the man being massaged to be asked if he will let/ how much for her male friend on the desk come in and fuck him?
Do you see the aid workers in Haiti who 'partied' with local women during a humanitarian disaster, as generously giving them money for food or medicine etc. As the Aid agency argued..?

Oh and finally

In countries where it is legal for children to work at various ages under 18. Whether full time, Saturday job. As a child model or actor. That makes it legitimate for them to sell sexual 'services' as work is work? And this work does not afaik have much in the way of health and safety laws or qualifications anywhere afaik so it's not the same as quarrying or flying s plane etc. And I mean some would argue (not me obv) that it's a great job for anyone under 18 as there's lots of demand, and it's not as horrible as some jobs. In countries where it's that or hunt through a rubbish tip for things to sell. Then being paid well to perform a service no different to a massage would be a really lucky break surely.

I'm only following your logic here upstream.

If you follow your own arguments through, then you presumably have no qualms about any of the situations I have outlined.

I'm sure you have thought through your arguments carefully. And I can see from the posts that rationality and logic rather than emotional response is very important to you.