Can you be a good person if you pay for sex? [Content warning: descriptions of sexual abuse]

[Lave]

Do you think there's a grey area or are all men who pay for sex abusive?

It’s only ‘irrelevant’ because it’s you being asked the questions. We see you.

1. It's irrelevant. But just by the way, plenty of prostitutes don't do anal, which is what I'd have to do as a man.

Why is it irrelevant?

Would you give 'happy endings' as a masseuse? No need for penetration there.

If not, why not?

And being straight isn't a viable reason because the women giving 'happy endings' aren't exactly getting their rocks off either so would be as aroused as you would be by a client's penis ie not very.

How do you know that most prostitutes 'don't do anal'?

Do you mean globally or what?

There are plenty of male prostitutes by the way. Do they take that line?

Interested to hear the basis for your statement.

You haven't read my posts properly have you.

Because your answer to 2 I predicted

1. It's irrelevant is a poor answer! Anyway you confirmed you were thinking of a context where sex acts are on the menu and so I said you didn't need to answer.

Thank you for confirming that male aid workers sent to humanitarian emergencies ARE helping by offering to pay the victims of the emergency for sex.

At least that's an honest answer.

Hey OP just wanted to say I agree with everything you’ve said. All the best with moving forward from such a traumatic time.

The high class escort rubbish is always rolled out .... how many people shop in harrods compared to Asda or tesco?

Brief look at UK punting or similar will give you a picture ... and it's asda/tesco.

How do you know that most prostitutes 'don't do anal'?

It,'s obvious from the review sites that plenty do.

It's also obvious from.the review sites that the prostitutes are often immigrants, often speak little or even no English, often gave pimps, jokingly referred to as Sergei by punters, sometimes are notes as drug users, and are regularly described as surly, reluctant, detached, and always trying to dodge or minimise doing what is offered in their profiles or what was agreed by text (which they themselves sometimes are not party to.

plenty of prostitutes don't do anal

You tell yourself that, buddy.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

1. It's irrelevant. But just by the way, plenty of prostitutes don't do anal, which is what I'd have to do as a man.

Why is it irrelevant?

Would you give 'happy endings' as a masseuse? No need for penetration there.

If not, why not?

And being straight isn't a viable reason because the women giving 'happy endings' aren't exactly getting their rocks off either so would be as aroused as you would be by a client's penis ie not very.

It's irrelevant because what I would or wouldn't do has nothing to do with the question of whether paid-for consent is still consent. I wouldn't clean buildings, especially the toilets, for £9-10 per hour. But others would and do. That doesn't in itself make it non-consensual.

"My friend has erectile dysfunction and 'uses' sex workers to learn how to perform again"

Then your friend is a revolting man.

His ED is his problem nobody else's.

If he wants it treating he should see his GP, not inflict himself on a sex worker who most probably wouldn't touch him with a barge pole in 'civvie' life.

I also highly doubt a doctor is going to give up her career to go and shag undesirable men for money.

@Fr0thandBubble

Hey OP just wanted to say I agree with everything you’ve said. All the best with moving forward from such a traumatic time.

Thank you so much

@NiceGerbil

You haven't read my posts properly have you.

Because your answer to 2 I predicted

1. It's irrelevant is a poor answer! Anyway you confirmed you were thinking of a context where sex acts are on the menu and so I said you didn't need to answer.

Thank you for confirming that male aid workers sent to humanitarian emergencies ARE helping by offering to pay the victims of the emergency for sex.

At least that's an honest answer.

You didn't predict, you misunderstood. It would be wrong to offer random women money for sex, because that is a violation of their space and self. Sex is more personal than most other things, and to ask strangers for sex would probably make them feel unsafe.

But when a woman offers her services willingly, there is nothing wrong in engaging. It isn't that sex is some special thing that can't be bought, only that to approach a stranger and ask for it is violating. But it can be bought from whoever sells it.

And I didn't say the aid workers are helping anyone. They are helping themselves. As it happens the women getting paid are also being helped, but that help can't be attributed to the aid workers as they had no such intent.

@NiceGerbil

How do you know that most prostitutes 'don't do anal'?

Do you mean globally or what?

There are plenty of male prostitutes by the way. Do they take that line?

Interested to hear the basis for your statement.

So maybe they do. That's not the hill I choose to die upon.

Anti prostitution brigade?

Your on a parenting website, on what planet are you on to think it going to be promoted as some inspirational career prospect? Also never in all my days here never have I seen anyone be convinced from being against paid rape to being for it.

The women that have shared their experiences have only skimmed surface of harm it has done to them. I just don’t know after reading that anyone still continues to try justify it as being anything other than harm & damage it does.

Sooo

It was just a guess/assumption?

Ok well fair enough thanks for letting us know.

Sorry that was in response to the the hill to die on post.

@LimeRedBanana

plenty of prostitutes don't do anal

You tell yourself that, buddy.

What does this mean please?

'It's irrelevant because what I would or wouldn't do has nothing to do with the question of whether paid-for consent is still consent. I wouldn't clean buildings, especially the toilets, for £9-10 per hour. But others would and do. That doesn't in itself make it non-consensual.'

Interesting.

Bog cleaning being a job that usually falls to women.

Veery interesting choice of job there.

The women that have shared their experiences have only skimmed surface of harm it has done to them. I just don’t know after reading that anyone still continues to try justify it as being anything other than harm & damage it does.

Me neither, I've been speaking from personal experience so know exactly what harm it does but apparently my voice doesn't count because I'm not one of the ones who went into it "willingly"

I find UpwardSwimmer's posts infuriating and saddening in equal measure.

'But when a woman offers her services willingly, there is nothing wrong in engaging. It isn't that sex is some special thing that can't be bought, only that to approach a stranger and ask for it is violating. But it can be bought from whoever sells it.'

And further into illogical arguments.

Being paid for sex is a service like any other.
Like having your nails done or getting a massage in a hotel.

I would have zero issues asking someone I met eg a masseuse who was giving me a massage if they also did nails.

If I saw a woman walking out of a nail bar in uniform I would comfortably ask her if massage was available and could she fit me in that afternoon.

Why the reticence upstream? What's the difference when it's paying for sex.

Either the there's a difference or there isn't. You have said there isn't. You're being inconsistent.

'And I didn't say the aid workers are helping anyone. They are helping themselves.'

Yes that's a really valuable insight. Thank you. Glad we agree on something!

@NiceGerbil

'But when a woman offers her services willingly, there is nothing wrong in engaging. It isn't that sex is some special thing that can't be bought, only that to approach a stranger and ask for it is violating. But it can be bought from whoever sells it.'

And further into illogical arguments.

Being paid for sex is a service like any other.
Like having your nails done or getting a massage in a hotel.

I would have zero issues asking someone I met eg a masseuse who was giving me a massage if they also did nails.

If I saw a woman walking out of a nail bar in uniform I would comfortably ask her if massage was available and could she fit me in that afternoon.

Why the reticence upstream? What's the difference when it's paying for sex.

Either the there's a difference or there isn't. You have said there isn't. You're being inconsistent.

You keep building up this strawman and pulling it down. I didn't say sex is like any other whatever. What I said is that paid consent is still consent. Same for paid consent to clean a filthy toilet and same for paid consent to provide sexual services.

Sexual assault is wrong. I include in that propositioning random women. That is because it would feel violating to them and would probably make them feel unsafe.

Propositioning women is just asking them to consent to sex. But as I said, when done to strangers, or rather out of context, it is violating. Same goes for propositioning for paid consent. The principle is the same.

However, when a woman offers her services, she is being clear that she is open to such a transaction. In that case, there wouldn't be anything wrong - consensually speaking - with accepting her terms and entering into a consensual transaction.

As an aside, massages are not entirely out of context for sexual add-ons, so I wouldn't see anything wrong in asking a masseuse/masseur whether they do any extras. As long as they feel totally safe when the question is asked, for example on the phone beforehand.

I still haven't read a simple and concise argument why it's morally wrong to accept the services of someone who offers sexual services for money. They are offering, the punter accepts and keeps entirely within the agreed parameters; what's wrong with that?

@Lave

If you haven’t already have look feminism & women’s rights section. There 2boards as MN recently split it have look through both. They very supportive over there

What does this mean please?

Isn’t it obvious? He clearly needs to say/think that plenty of sex workers ‘don’t do anal’.

Whereas, in reality, it’s not as if their preferences even come into it.