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Can you be a good person if you pay for sex? [Content warning: descriptions of sexual abuse]

582 replies

Lave · 18/07/2021 14:15

Do you think there's a grey area or are all men who pay for sex abusive?

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 19/07/2021 21:55

The fact that so many girls and women have been abused raped or just never been with anyone who didn't just focus on their own pleasure is terrible of course.

The fact is that those men especially the abusers essentially groom women to see being paid in a different way. I can totally see why might as well make some money from it is a natural response.

That's another angle on the harm caused to so many women and girls due to men and sex.

The abusers groom the next group of women who will because of that be more likely to accept being paid by essentially the next abusers down the line.

It's horrific.

FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop · 19/07/2021 21:56

No.

People who pay for sex are rapists.

UpstreamSwimmer · 20/07/2021 03:09

Nail salons is also a profession where there are a lot of trafficked women, yet I don't see bi-weekly threads on MN railing against women who get their nails done.

As long as the prostitute claims she is acting of her own free will, and there aren't any signs that clearly point otherwise, there is no reason to assume she is being coerced.

UpstreamSwimmer · 20/07/2021 03:14

And it's not a woman's 'body' any more than any manual worker is selling their 'body'. As a matter of fact you can 'buy' people's bodies by employing them as actors. You can even do intimate scenes (I'm talking about mainstream acting).

It's possible to pay someone to professionally massage your body, even though they would never do it if it weren't for the money. Just as you can get someone to wait on you, clean your house, be your PA and much more. All things that people do solely for the money.

But we don't call those jobs rape or slavery. Yet if you pay someone for sexual gratification, somehow this is equivalent to rape? Is there something special about sexual services that you can't buy consent, unlike any other manual service no matter how gross?

Twinkletwinklelittlecar · 20/07/2021 03:27

Yes @UpstreamSwimmer because rape is not the same as answering the phone or vacuuming.
Sex requires enthusiastic consent, anything else is rape.

SourAppleChew · 20/07/2021 03:45

It's not as simple as 'good' or 'bad'.

An entrepreneur might occasionally sleep with escorts but donate hundreds of thousands to charity via a business fund.

Another person might never sleep with escorts but also do nothing whatsoever to help anbody in need.

The first person has questionable morals but has helped more people than he's hurt in balance.

UpstreamSwimmer · 20/07/2021 03:51

@Twinkletwinklelittlecar

Yes *@UpstreamSwimmer* because rape is not the same as answering the phone or vacuuming. Sex requires enthusiastic consent, anything else is rape.
All work requires enthusiastic consent, otherwise it's slavery.
BlatantlyNameChanged · 20/07/2021 05:40

Working at Tesco, being a mainstream actor, or laying bricks doesn't require you having to let someone put their penis in you, there are protections and rights such as a minimum wage limit, health and safety rules, holiday pay, sick pay, protections from violence at work, etc. A cleaner is not selling access to their body, even when they're cleaning they still have bodily autonomy, they are selling a service. Selling sex requires giving up bodily autonomy and is not comparable.

I bet you're a man.

hawkehurstgang · 20/07/2021 06:14

Can you be a sex worker and be a good person?

What is the difference?

Both a sex worker and someone who uses one have the same opinions/values on the topic. So just wondering why (if you believe a sex worker can be a good person), the same value/opinion could make the user a bad person. (Not RTFT so sorry if this has been covered.)

hawkehurstgang · 20/07/2021 06:18

(Should add, I am referring to sex workers who do so voluntarily and not because of any abuse/trafficking/etc, which I think is a different, although connected, issue.)

hawkehurstgang · 20/07/2021 06:25

I know ONE sex worker, a friend of a friend who I accidentally meet sometimes at parties, who adores her job, talks about it at length at any possible opportunity, brags about how much money she earns, and seems genuinely thrilled with herself, and so it is this type of sex worker I am considering when I answer your question - someone who went into it as easy, good money/a bit of fun/easy work (in her words). For what it's worth, I don't think I'd call her a good person any more than I'd call a man who uses her services a good person. To me, due to my own personal beliefs, the sex worker and user of sex workers are both morally questionable and not people I'd like to spend time around. I guess it's all down to our own personal opinions and morals.

Maireas · 20/07/2021 06:28

@hawkehurstgang

Can you be a sex worker and be a good person?

What is the difference?

Both a sex worker and someone who uses one have the same opinions/values on the topic. So just wondering why (if you believe a sex worker can be a good person), the same value/opinion could make the user a bad person. (Not RTFT so sorry if this has been covered.)

I suggest that you read the thread in it's entirety. It's most illuminating.
Frootloops4life · 20/07/2021 08:27

@hawkehurstgang

Can you be a sex worker and be a good person?

What is the difference?

Both a sex worker and someone who uses one have the same opinions/values on the topic. So just wondering why (if you believe a sex worker can be a good person), the same value/opinion could make the user a bad person. (Not RTFT so sorry if this has been covered.)

That's like asking if I judge rape victims in the same way I judge rapists.
LemonRoses · 20/07/2021 08:33

In fairness, despite a fairly conservative view that sex should be within committed relationships and finding the idea of one-night stands abhorrent, I do know a couple of girls who could be described as profiting from the sex industry. One was cabin crew before redundancies happened and she supplemented her income selling her used uniform shoes. She bought shoes specifically to sell at significant profit. The other was a medical student who worked on a sex telephone line. She said it was as dull as dishwater, but meant she could earn whilst revising. Both were lovely young women- despite their chosen income streams.

Thisisworsethananticpated · 20/07/2021 08:37

The issue for me is that sex and sexual needs are such a basic tenet of humanity

Yet being humans we have turned it into
Something complex and nuanced with multiple shades

So we have at the worst end of the scale rape and of course child abuse
Then there is the middle Area of kinks , cheating , orgies , etc etc
Then supposedly the area of free and consensual

So on a basic level if (a) wants to fuck and (b) wants to make some money offering it I don’t have a problem with that

I can’t buy into the concept that it’s absolute evil

Some areas certainly are , but not all

ShortBacknSides · 20/07/2021 09:25

The issue for me is that sex and sexual needs are such a basic tenet of humanity

Hmmm, sex is not a human right, though. Despite what the misogynists at Amnesty believe.

YouShouldLeave · 20/07/2021 09:28

@hawkehurstgang

I know ONE sex worker, a friend of a friend who I accidentally meet sometimes at parties, who adores her job, talks about it at length at any possible opportunity, brags about how much money she earns, and seems genuinely thrilled with herself, and so it is this type of sex worker I am considering when I answer your question - someone who went into it as easy, good money/a bit of fun/easy work (in her words). For what it's worth, I don't think I'd call her a good person any more than I'd call a man who uses her services a good person. To me, due to my own personal beliefs, the sex worker and user of sex workers are both morally questionable and not people I'd like to spend time around. I guess it's all down to our own personal opinions and morals.
What makes the sex workers morals questionable?

Is it the sex, the number of partners, the money, something else?

Why are they as bad as the men paying?

rishisboater · 20/07/2021 09:34

Sex is on Maslows hierarchy of needs. However, so is reputation, safety, self esteem etc. All which can be taken from a person when they perform sex for money

BrumCahoots · 20/07/2021 09:41

I never use to think about this much . But where I live now I see women on the corner early mornings working .. most of them look underweight, bruises on their legs etc .. so no .. I don't think you are a good person if you pay them for sex . People talk of university students becoming escorts , they talk of "high class hookers" .. people who do this job because they enjoy sex ... it's no different .. I would be horrified if my daughter had done this to pay for Uni ... I have no idea what I'm talking about really ... but I'm sure these women do not wake up feeling that great in the morning .. I feel it's abuse

KarmaStar · 20/07/2021 09:49

There are women who enjoy their profession and price themselves on their abilities,and why shouldn't they?
Yes you can be a good person who needs sex and for a reason,cannot access sex on a ' normal ' basis,i.e.
Disabled people,those who are single,people who don't want it can't get a relationship and more.
If both parties are happy,let them enjoy themselves.
Obviously,sex trafficking,pimp workers etc are not included in the above.
Best not to judge.🌈

hawkehurstgang · 20/07/2021 10:07

"That's like asking if I judge rape victims in the same way I judge rapists."

This is a very odd comment. How is two adults consenting to have sex in return for one party paying the other, comparable to rape? I clearly stated that when I gave my opinion, I was discussing sex workers like the girl I know - who were NOT victims of abuse/trafficking, went into it fully aware of what was involved, and actually, genuinely enjoys her job. To compare this to a rape victim seems, to me, extraordinarily insensitive to rape victims, as well as... Well, just wrong. Uninformed, maybe even a little ignorant. Sorry, just being honest.

"What makes the sex workers morals questionable?

Is it the sex, the number of partners, the money, something else?

Why are they as bad as the men paying?'

Well, again, I'm assuming the sex worker in question has consented to being in this job. So I would say that while I don't feel THAT strongly about it (in that I don't think it's my business, and I don't give it a huge amount of thought), it is the process I dislike. The idea that sex can be purchased. To me, it just seems - for want of a better word - icky. The whole thing seems, to me, based on my own personal morals and experiences, to be seedy, dirty, unpleasant. I don't like the idea of sex just being this casual thing between absolute strangers that can be bought. I am NOT saying that my opinion is right. I'm just trying to be honest and explain myself. So, in light of my dislike of the entire process, I'd say that both parties consent to the process, both parties are willing participants in the process, so to me both parties are equally involved. If anything, a man who pays for sex might choose to participate in this process only once and then regret it/not do it again/settle down in a committed relationship and not ever visit a sex worker for the rest of their days. Whereas a sex worker who chooses this job, chooses to be a part of this process over and over again.

I suppose I'm a bit of a prude or a bit old fashioned, although I don't judge people who have had multiple partners or casual relationships, so I suppose it must be something to do with the giving and receiving of money for such an intimate act that makes me feel uneasy.

I also don't think it's right to talk of people who CHOOSE to be sex workers as victims, because this is very insulting to them. If a grown woman chooses to go into sex work, and claim that they are fine with it, who are we to be like 'oh no you aren't, you're not fine, I wouldn't be fine, so you couldn't possibly be fine.' I don't think we'd talk about men like this. It seems very sexist and patronising.

Neondisco · 20/07/2021 10:10

@hawkehurstgang

Can you be a sex worker and be a good person?

What is the difference?

Both a sex worker and someone who uses one have the same opinions/values on the topic. So just wondering why (if you believe a sex worker can be a good person), the same value/opinion could make the user a bad person. (Not RTFT so sorry if this has been covered.)

Selling and buying sex are completely different things. So it makes no sense you would compare the morals of a person doing them.
0DETTE · 20/07/2021 10:12

@KarmaStar

There are women who enjoy their profession and price themselves on their abilities,and why shouldn't they? Yes you can be a good person who needs sex and for a reason,cannot access sex on a ' normal ' basis,i.e. Disabled people,those who are single,people who don't want it can't get a relationship and more. If both parties are happy,let them enjoy themselves. Obviously,sex trafficking,pimp workers etc are not included in the above. Best not to judge.🌈
No one NEEDS sex. They might want it. But I want to win the lottery - why are you not arranging that for me if it’s a need?

And as to all this “ arrange sex on a normal basis “? It’s really not that hard to get a shag, I’m guessing you’ve on been dating / on tinder recently.

Disabled people have relationships just like everyone else - I find your bigotry towards disabled people abhorrent and akin to hate speech. People with disabilities are fully human - they are not some sub class of humanity that no one wants.

Do please tell me how a John can ascertain if his chosen victim is happy ? Do you know that the defence of every single rapists and paedophile is “ I thought she consented and enjoyed it “.

And yes I do fucking judge them - every single one.

BrumCahoots · 20/07/2021 10:12

I'm not judging people .. but in all honesty .. would any of you be happy if your daughter, sister, mother etc chose this job .. would you be perfectly ok with that decision and think oh well . They are enjoying work .. ? And would you think the men paying them were good people ?

0DETTE · 20/07/2021 10:13

you’ve NOT been dating or on Tinder