To think these groups of men in the park are a bit weird

[SinoAZ]

I'm not in the UK so I guess there's cultural expectations that might be different but I'm British and would like to know what other British mums think/how you'd react to this. Do people even do this in the UK?

Since restrictions lifted I've been taking my 18 month old DD to the park. We used to go before restrictions and we'd see old people walking, other families etc and sometimes chat to them. Now because of continuing restrictions there are lots of people not working so there are largeish groups of young men who hang around the park (maybe 6 or 7 of them). They sit at the picnic benches or swing on the swings which of course is fine, it's a nice place to be. But they keep shouting at my DD. They'll call out to her "hello baby girl" repeatedly and wave and make faces/silly noises which, to me, just feels a bit inappropriate. Like yes say hello/wave to her if she comes near you but to shout so repeatedly makes me uncomfortable.

DH says they're harmless and probably just miss their own kids (I think they're immigrants like me but will have come to work here and left their families in their home country). I don't feel threatened by them at all but I can't help feel that they wouldn't be shouting at her if she was with DH and it feels like that male entitlement to women's time/attention again. AIBU to feel a bit uncomfortable with this?

Maybe it's just a lifetime of experiences like this with men colouring my view but I hate that expectation that when a man wants to speak to you he can be so insistent and refuse to take no for an answer. I don't want that to be happening to my daughter before she's even two.

Sorry that was long, a bit of a vent as well as an AIBU.

@Upwherethebirdsfly, yep another helpless white British woman who could not possibly know what to do in the presence of or say to brown men “repeatedly” saying hello to a toddler. So scary these brown men that one feels paralysed with fear. Fear apparently from being too polite.

But in the context of where I was I just don't think that's what happened. Noone in the park is white except for me. The fact these men are immigrants or that there skin is brown is not remarkable for where I was, it's their behaviour that was unusual and weird.

Many Indian and Middle Eastern men actually have sun darkenened rather than genetically dark skin and hair. I would bet some of them have kids who look just like your daughter as light / blonde / red hair and pale eyes / skin are commonplace in many countries until 3-5.

[quote MrsMayJune]@SinoAZ if their skin colour was so unremarkable why did you ensure we all understood that you are a white female in the vicinity of brown males?

So unremarkable but remarkable enough to signal.[/quote]
You are reading way too much into this. I said they're immigrants (I actually didn't mention their skin colour) to give context to what DH said and to explain why they're in the park rather than at work. You notice I didn't mention the race/nationality of anyone else referred to? Why do you think that is?

@Ozanj

*But in the context of where I was I just don't think that's what happened. Noone in the park is white except for me. The fact these men are immigrants or that there skin is brown is not remarkable for where I was, it's their behaviour that was unusual and weird.*

Many Indian and Middle Eastern men actually have sun darkenened rather than genetically dark skin and hair. I would bet some of them have kids who look just like your daughter as light / blonde / red hair and pale eyes / skin are commonplace in many countries until 3-5.

Err ok but my daughter is not white and does not look like you described.

@Habitualhonesty

In many countries / cultures it’s normal to pick other people’s babies out of their parents arms and coo and play with them. Hold children’s hands that aren’t your own and guide them/help them/even scold them. It was even like that here generations ago….It’s so sad that has been lost due to the minority of sickos that pray on our kids. My mum always used to say……It takes a village to raise a child - that still applies. Hence why it’s all going scarily wrong.

It's not because of predators. It's because people have realised that babies and children aren't just props in other people's lives, that they have feelings and deserve respect. If you wouldn't shout at, coo over, randomly fondle another adult, just because you felt like it, why is it OK to do that with children? They aren't public property.

It's definitely odd behaviour, but maybe a cultural thing as you say.

I felt the men’s background was mentioned to acknowledge the fact that it is more likely what they are doing is innocuous (or intended that way) - I’m sure if the op had been writing about similar behaviour from white British men most posters would have condemned it outright as we know it’s weird and threatening in this culture. Because she is in Malaysia and the men in question are from another countries or countries again, we have to understand that the same norms don’t apply and, in fact, we do not fully understand what norms apply. So it is important contextual information because it switches the question from being about dealing with creepy behaviour to one about dealing with behaviour that makes the op uncomfortable, but which may be meant kindly.

@SinoAZ, the problem with dog whistles is that they usually aren’t explicitly but it is easy to read the underlying message. You did not say what their race was but you said enough for it to be obvious that you are white and that they are brown skinned and also different from the native born of the country you’re in.

You concern was a group of men paying unwanted attention to your daughter. Qualifying the immigration status of the group of men was unnecessary and I question you underlying reasons for it.

You earlier claimed the reason why it matter was an attempt by you and your husband to explain their behaviour. But that makes no sense. The behaviour you described of repeatedly calling her, catcalling and demanding her attention cannot or should not be minimised because of their status as immigrants. You explanation for flagging they are of a different ethnicity to you really makes no sense. Regardless of what race or creed they are, the behaviour you described is a problem regardless.

So I stand by my concern over you qualifying the identity of these men. Would it have been more acceptable if they were white, employed males? No it would not have been. Would you have felt any less intimidated? If do, why. I’m guessing you will say you would not have felt any less intimidated so why if their ethnicity is so unremarkable you chose to mention it and make clear that you are a different ethnicity to them?

What more can be said. Whether you want to reflect on this is entirely up to you.

No matter what ethnicity I would be intimidated by 6-7 men in a play park. I would be even more uncomfortable if they repeatedly tried to interact with my DCs. YANBU OP.

If that makes me a 'fragile white woman' so be it.

I'd not be going to that park again if it were me.

@MrsMayJune different from the "native born"? I don't think you know much about Malaysia or who lives here. As I said many times, I was not intimidated by them, I do not believe they intend me or DD any harm. It was annoying and uncomfortable in a "should I keep saying hello and encouraging DD to engage, is it rude to ignore them" kind of way.

Whether you think the explanation DH offered up is realistic or not doesn't much matter, it's just what he said.

@MoreAloneTime

I'd not be going to that park again if it were me.

The other parks are worse, there are monkeys there that actually will attack you. Funnily they also target women and leave men alone.

@MrsMayJune not sure how much race plays into this for me. I don’t really care if they are men, women, brown men, white women - whatever. My issue is people being disrespectful when clear signals are given that the person being engaged doesn’t wish to be engaged. I think it’s fair to say that non-verbal cues don’t transcend cultures well (and that might be an issue for the OP) and maybe a hard verbal ‘I don’t want to talk / play right not’ is clearer.

It’s not about the realism of your husband’s explanation. It’s what it means/implies.

So you were not intimidated just annoyed and uncomfortable by men (let’s leave out their ethnicity) catcalling, repeatedly calling, harrying, and demanding the attention of your toddler daughter?

I’m not telling you how you should feel but for the picture painted of the men’s behaviour I thought you were more than just annoyed.

I guess one would have had to be there to truly appreciate what you were annoyed by.

@Upwherethebirdsfly, I don’t disagree and it seems fair to at least try saying something instead o assuming immediately that “scary people, I’m too scared and intimidated.”

The OP said she was not intimidated so no reason not to say something. To assume that they would be offended and do what, I don’t know is dehumanising them with no legitimate cause other than fear of immigrant brown people prone to attacking white women.

They are not intimidating but I’ll simply assume that they are a danger should I ask them politely to stop. After all, one cannot or should not expect them to act any other way than like savages.

Why must they prove they are normal non-dangerous human beings whilst others are assume first off to be human without needing to demonstrate/prove that they are?

@SinoAZ

Two way interaction I don't mind, it's the repetitive nature of their calling/trying to get her attention when she's clearly just minding her own business which bothers me.

It'll be a moot point soon anyway, either they'll go back to work or we'll all be banned from the parks again to try and stop covid.

I’m guilty of this - when a child is rolled or carried by and I am in their sight line, I’ll wave or make a face or juggle what I’m holding or something to (hopefully) amuse the child for the moment before they move out of range. It makes me happy and, when they smile or laugh, it makes them happy too.

It was only when I was living in the UK (for about nine months a decade ago) did parents who noticed get weird about it. “Don’t make faces at my daughter, you paedo!” sort of responses. Meh.

Would it better if there wasn’t the sheer volume of attention? Or is it the audible component?

@thedancingbear

^No she shouldn't. But it would also feel pretty ridiculous for a poster to come on and say that she's living the expat life in Saudi and by the way isn't it a bit weird that she can't go running wearing gym shorts.

You can't go to a conservative Muslim country and think it is in any way weird that the role and expectations of women are different. Your freedom to disagree with those roles, but it's a bit pointless to post about it on a UK site.^

Fine. So I can stay in your country, provided I don't congregate with my friends (suddenly we're a 'gang'), don't go to the park, and don't interact with kids, in case I kidnap them.

Cheers guys. England is sadly becoming more and more hostile. Look at any of the papers today or over the last week and this will be transparent. You are part of the problem.

What??? Literally none of those statements about gangs or kidnapping came from me. You're arguing with someone you made up.

@Pretzelcoatl honestly, that annoys me sometimes. My child doesn't exist to make you happy, they're not obliged to respond to you and sometimes they don't appreciate a random stranger pulling faces at them. Sometimes they giggle, sometimes they get upset. Other times I'm walking them in the pram to try to get them to sleep because I've had a long, difficult day, and the last thing I need is someone trying to get their attention and making them laugh.

Would you like a random man pulling faces at you to make you laugh? Asking you to smile because it makes him happy?

[quote Pigeonpocket]@Pretzelcoatl honestly, that annoys me sometimes. My child doesn't exist to make you happy, they're not obliged to respond to you and sometimes they don't appreciate a random stranger pulling faces at them. Sometimes they giggle, sometimes they get upset. Other times I'm walking them in the pram to try to get them to sleep because I've had a long, difficult day, and the last thing I need is someone trying to get their attention and making them laugh.

Would you like a random man pulling faces at you to make you laugh? Asking you to smile because it makes him happy?[/quote]
I don’t make any noise, I just do visuals for the few seconds as the child is being carried/wheeled by. Unless a child has wandered up to me, then I say hello.

And I’ve never had a man ask me to smile, but I’ve had unknown women (plural) tell me that smiles are free in public, presumably when my face has been looking particularly thunderous. Note: I’m a guy.

People from other cultures are often very friendly to babies and small children in a way that the British aren't. I've lived in several countries and found this to be the case in all of them. I think it's lovely and your post is bizarre and if anyone is being sexist maybe it's you - presumably if it was a woman saying hello to your child it would be fine.

This is bringing back bad memories of being on holiday aged 11, a train conductor thinking it was a good idea to try some got your nose stuff on me. I ended up telling him to fuck off

It's fine if the child seems responsive but it's a bit uncle knobhead if not

@Pretzelcoatl I know men sometimes find it hard to understand but this thread isn't about you and what you've done in the past. Did you even read what I wrote? If that's how you behaved then people were well within their rights to find your behaviour very odd.

@hawkehurstgang

People from other cultures are often very friendly to babies and small children in a way that the British aren't. I've lived in several countries and found this to be the case in all of them. I think it's lovely and your post is bizarre and if anyone is being sexist maybe it's you - presumably if it was a woman saying hello to your child it would be fine.

Please read what I wrote before commenting, thanks.

[quote MrsMayJune]@SinoAZ, the problem with dog whistles is that they usually aren’t explicitly but it is easy to read the underlying message. You did not say what their race was but you said enough for it to be obvious that you are white and that they are brown skinned and also different from the native born of the country you’re in.

You concern was a group of men paying unwanted attention to your daughter. Qualifying the immigration status of the group of men was unnecessary and I question you underlying reasons for it.

You earlier claimed the reason why it matter was an attempt by you and your husband to explain their behaviour. But that makes no sense. The behaviour you described of repeatedly calling her, catcalling and demanding her attention cannot or should not be minimised because of their status as immigrants. You explanation for flagging they are of a different ethnicity to you really makes no sense. Regardless of what race or creed they are, the behaviour you described is a problem regardless.

So I stand by my concern over you qualifying the identity of these men. Would it have been more acceptable if they were white, employed males? No it would not have been. Would you have felt any less intimidated? If do, why. I’m guessing you will say you would not have felt any less intimidated so why if their ethnicity is so unremarkable you chose to mention it and make clear that you are a different ethnicity to them?

What more can be said. Whether you want to reflect on this is entirely up to you.[/quote]
Of course the ethnicity is vital in this because it adds background to the scenario - they may be immigrant workers, they may live in labour camps, they may only see their families once every five years , they may have come from remote villages in their homeland , they may be unused to seeing Western women ( if this is the case) , they may be used to just squatting on the ground for a pee, they may go in the sea in underpants that become see through and offensive when wet , they may stare , they may crowd you in public spaces , they may gather in groups and catcall etc . I have lived in places where workers are instructed not to look at the women when they are working in or near homes and in reverse I was advised to temper my normal behaviour in certain locales . Have you never arrived at an airport where the sides are lined with men , only men , immigrant labour ? Are you Mrs Bountiful who thinks " how lovely look at all these local workers out here ?" Many many years ago I was a naive worker in a country where my politeness ( thinking I had to talk to everyone ) ended up with a horrific situation where a young man tried to break into my apartment . He had mistaken my Western politeness for an interest in him . It ended up with police chasing him overnight and him ending up in a hospital where he was pumped full of drugs .

It's easy to be academic and woke about this but reality is very different .

they may live in labour camps, they may only see their families once every five years , they may have come from remote villages in their homeland , they may be unused to seeing Western women ( if this is the case) , they may be used to just squatting on the ground for a pee, they may go in the sea in underpants that become see through and offensive when wet , they may stare , they may crowd you in public spaces , they may gather in groups and catcall etc

So, immigrants are poor, dirty, shit in holes, they're rapey, and when they go in the sea you can see their cocks.

Fucking despicable racist shit. You should be ashamed.