To think these groups of men in the park are a bit weird

[SinoAZ]

I'm not in the UK so I guess there's cultural expectations that might be different but I'm British and would like to know what other British mums think/how you'd react to this. Do people even do this in the UK?

Since restrictions lifted I've been taking my 18 month old DD to the park. We used to go before restrictions and we'd see old people walking, other families etc and sometimes chat to them. Now because of continuing restrictions there are lots of people not working so there are largeish groups of young men who hang around the park (maybe 6 or 7 of them). They sit at the picnic benches or swing on the swings which of course is fine, it's a nice place to be. But they keep shouting at my DD. They'll call out to her "hello baby girl" repeatedly and wave and make faces/silly noises which, to me, just feels a bit inappropriate. Like yes say hello/wave to her if she comes near you but to shout so repeatedly makes me uncomfortable.

DH says they're harmless and probably just miss their own kids (I think they're immigrants like me but will have come to work here and left their families in their home country). I don't feel threatened by them at all but I can't help feel that they wouldn't be shouting at her if she was with DH and it feels like that male entitlement to women's time/attention again. AIBU to feel a bit uncomfortable with this?

Maybe it's just a lifetime of experiences like this with men colouring my view but I hate that expectation that when a man wants to speak to you he can be so insistent and refuse to take no for an answer. I don't want that to be happening to my daughter before she's even two.

Sorry that was long, a bit of a vent as well as an AIBU.

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

MrsMaizel that's actually what I was trying to get at! I don't think there's anything to be gained by denying that this is male entitlement, nor by trying to insist cultural norms are the same in every country (or even region) as the posters desperate to jump on and shout that they aren't racist therefore would expect the same behaviour in Malaysia as in England or in any other country are obtusely doing.

It's how it is and as a guest in a country it is necessary to understand that cultural expectations are different - but that doesn't mean that some things aren't uncomfortable or downright unpleasant or very difficult, just as other things are better than elsewhere.

The OP appears from her latest post to be married to a Malaysian citizen, so her own situation is more complicated and she's (as she herself says) an immigrant with a vested interest in her adopted country, not an expat.

Yes I agree but it sounds as if she is very naive about living there . We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if her husband was there it wouldn't happen - she should go with a friend or an amah and she should not engage in conversation .

@SinoAZ you seem to have me mixed up with someone else . I did NOT say what you have said about the demonising ! Not me ! However I do maintain that you are naive if you think you can engage in conversation with unknown men and not have some comeback . I'm not a troll , merely someone who has lived in various countries for many years .

Your thinking is all over the place. So I shouldn't "demonise brown men" or whatever it was you said but also I shouldn't treat them with common courtesy because it's in their nature to harass women. That's fucked up. Please stop trolling

I think you are after @Naunet

Sorry, I confused you with the other "Mrs".

It would be interesting to see if they did this if your child were a boy. I suspect not.

I wouldn't like this. I think they're really trying to get your attention, not hers, hence the persistence. And I don't think adults should take over children's play areas.

Your DH's response is a typical male response to everyday sexism and harassment of women and girls:

'I don't experience that or see it happening, so I don't think it happens much. There must be a perfectly reasonable, innocent explanation (given that I, a man, see myself as reasonable and harmless, other men are usually reasonable and harmless towards me and I do not wish to see 'brand Man' sullied by feminine slurs).'

You DH needs to observe from a distance, unobtrusively and for a period of time, to see this happening to you. He'll never 'get it' until he sees it play out as if he wasn't there.

Then he can walk over and greet you and see if anything changes.

I think the fact that you are in Malaysia is very relevant and should have been in your OP. Culture absolutely does play a part in how acceptable or not this is. In England? Very, very weird and aggressive as it's so against the norm here.

PP poster mentioned the harsh lockdowns in Malaysia. The same is happening all over SE Asia. Construction sites etc closed and large amounts of migrant men either locked in compounds or left with no work, no salary and a difficult and likely illegal journey if they wanted to return home. A lot of posters have said they shouldn't be there etc but really? If you knew how shit their 'home' was, would you really deny them the chance to use a park? And yes, including the precious swings.

I don't think you're wrong for not wanting to talk to them or even being annoyed by their interactions but this would not be the hill I would die on.

@araiwa

A woman said hello to me this morning at work.

What is it with femal entitlement to my time and demanding a response from me. I hate the expectation of women demanding I interact with them

Did she keep calling out hallo constantly to you while you were going about your business? If not then it's irrelevant

We lived very near to Malaysia and had a lot of migrant workers altho’ you would only really bump into them on Sundays and occasionally in the evening. They were always really keen to engage with my kids and I assumed, like you, that this was because they really missed their own families. I am generally hideously over protective but did encourage my children to smile/play peekaboo etc. for as long as they would engage. Tbf it is the safest country in the world so I wasn’t worried. And I had an immigrant grandfather who used to weep on his Sundays off back in the 50s because he missed his young family back home so much. So I saw it as a a mini social service. But if you are uncomfy that isn’t fair on you either. So no actual advice or much of an opinion but I hope you can resolve it without any conflict.

Using park, fine. Pestering people for attention, not fine.

The cultural barriers make it harm to gauge but I would also be uncomfortable in this situation - groups of young men trying to repeatedly to gain the attention of a lone woman and child are threatening, or at least feel it.

I love it when men and women smile at or say hello to my toddler. That's not what OP is describing.

Two way interaction I don't mind, it's the repetitive nature of their calling/trying to get her attention when she's clearly just minding her own business which bothers me.

It'll be a moot point soon anyway, either they'll go back to work or we'll all be banned from the parks again to try and stop covid.

Sounds like they might be dealing drugs from the park.

YANBU. Constantly calling to someone who’s busy and minding their own business is harassment. It’s intimidating. It’s not in any way the same as a polite greeting in passing.

@sloanerangerpandora

Sounds like they might be dealing drugs from the park.

Because they are calling to an 18 month old? I wouldn't have thought she was the target for drug dealers.

🤣 drugs was not the first thing to cross my mind! Funny you mention it though as there was one guy I had pegged as a drug dealer at the park yesterday - he didn't even look at DD though.

That's probably because he realised an 18 month old was unlikely to be looking to buy drugs off him. Smart guy.

You may have seen this, it's interesting. Are they just being friendly? Complimentary? The most intimidating guy actually says almost nothing. This is New York obviously, not Malaysia. Also there's another video where she "talks back!"

Ah, men harassing women and girls is just them being friendly. It's women who do bad things or make men do bad things. Sure no man would harm a hair on a woman or girl's head. And op is in the wrong for existing. Bless. All the 'progressive' posters on this thread.

It is decidedly odd for groups of men without children to hang around a children's playground and being intrusive to the children to a level that feels harassing. Is there no other place at all in the park or in the town for groups of men to sit? Or can groups of men not sit in the playground without yelling at the kids?

I'd hate my child being yelled at repeatedly by groups of men. This is not just a friendly hello.

@SinoAZ

I abhor this attitude that you and your dad have. It's extremely regressive and damaging to women and children. The way I see it is we are increasingly calling attention to the harm caused by men to women and children ie sexual abuse (catcalling, flashing, assault, rape...). Of course the police still don't take these things seriously and you end up with tragedies like Sarah Everard. But society is not silent about these things anymore and it's making the world a safer place for all of us. I feel like ten years ago if someone had flashed me/DD I would have hurried away and done nothing more. No way would I do that now, the police would be involved as it's sexual assault. And that's because of raised awareness of how harmful and unacceptable this male behaviour is

So I'm not sorry that your dad feels uncomfortable standing at the school gate. What exactly is it that he is worried about? That someone will think mean thoughts about him? Because to me that's vastly preferable to a woman avoiding going about her daily routine because she's worried someone will assault her or her children

This. In spades. I hear you OP. I think you would have more people 'get it' on the feminism boards.

Op I would absolutely hate this YANBU

Went back to the park and was really concious of how everyone interacted.

Younger man on the swings - DD waved at him, he waved back, said hello then moved to a table so she could play on the swings. Totally normal.

Few men/women walking around - DD waved when we walked past, they variously waved back, smiled, said hello or had a short conversation. Totally normal.

Older man - we were playing on the swings, he approached us and got very close saying how beautiful and cute DD is. She gets upset and I ask him to leave. Weird.

Most people - we ignored them and they ignored us. Totally normal.

@Cooldryplace

I think it's really sad that men can't be friendly to a child, without it seeming weird.

My grandad was lovely with children and would have other people's little ones climbing all over him wherever we went. When my dad, who's also lively with children, collected my DC from school, he would arrive at the very last minute because he felt so uncomfortable "loitering" around a school

What a weird attitude your dad has. Why on Earth would he feel uncomfortable??

His behaviour is totally different to what OP is describing, so it's not that relevant.

Yanbu at all. It's completely unacceptable behaviour and could be seen as threatening, intimidating and irritating.

What are they getting out of it? V weird.

I'd send your h with your dd tomorrow then report back!