To think these groups of men in the park are a bit weird

[SinoAZ]

I'm not in the UK so I guess there's cultural expectations that might be different but I'm British and would like to know what other British mums think/how you'd react to this. Do people even do this in the UK?

Since restrictions lifted I've been taking my 18 month old DD to the park. We used to go before restrictions and we'd see old people walking, other families etc and sometimes chat to them. Now because of continuing restrictions there are lots of people not working so there are largeish groups of young men who hang around the park (maybe 6 or 7 of them). They sit at the picnic benches or swing on the swings which of course is fine, it's a nice place to be. But they keep shouting at my DD. They'll call out to her "hello baby girl" repeatedly and wave and make faces/silly noises which, to me, just feels a bit inappropriate. Like yes say hello/wave to her if she comes near you but to shout so repeatedly makes me uncomfortable.

DH says they're harmless and probably just miss their own kids (I think they're immigrants like me but will have come to work here and left their families in their home country). I don't feel threatened by them at all but I can't help feel that they wouldn't be shouting at her if she was with DH and it feels like that male entitlement to women's time/attention again. AIBU to feel a bit uncomfortable with this?

Maybe it's just a lifetime of experiences like this with men colouring my view but I hate that expectation that when a man wants to speak to you he can be so insistent and refuse to take no for an answer. I don't want that to be happening to my daughter before she's even two.

Sorry that was long, a bit of a vent as well as an AIBU.

[quote MrsMayJune]@Naunet you would be right if OP did not make a point of highlighting they are immigrants and different. If the concern was just about their gender then why tell us about their immigration and possible employment status?[/quote]
Because if you actually read her post, she was using it to make possible excuses for them, not to make out like that made them more of a threat.

Yes OP totally know what you mean. A group of men with no children hanging out in a child’s playground is intimidating to start with. No way would I feel happy with them calling out to me or my child. Not sure what you do about it though

[quote MrsMayJune]@Naunet you would be right if OP did not make a point of highlighting they are immigrants and different. If the concern was just about their gender then why tell us about their immigration and possible employment status?[/quote]
I mentioned it as it was relevant to DH's point that they're probably just missing their own children. Malaysia is a nation of immigrants (including me).

@Naunet you’ve just proved the point that this is the direction this thread was going to go. The Rotherham case proves what? That brown men prey on white women?

Who has been the greatest danger to white women? Brown immigrants, is it?

[quote SinoAZ]@SimonJT it's not their race that makes me disturbed by their behaviour, it's their sex. Male.[/quote]
Really, then why the very heavy focus on their ethnicity and nationality?

Groups of adults unaccompanied by children should not be hanging out in kids' playgrounds. Playgrounds are for children to play and socialise. There are enough adults in their way in the form of the ones who actually have to be there, i.e. their carers accompanying them. Adults need to respect children's spaces. One thing that drove me absolutely potty over lockdown was the number of young men using our nearest playground as a gym over lockdown, getting in the way of the children, leaving weights lying around dangerously and getting angry when the kids ran or rode their bikes near their stuff.

And you're right, OP. We as women felt unable to challenge them because we didn't want to deal with any resulting aggression with our kids there. Luckily, lots of dads use the playground in our area (more dads than mums at the weekend) and they had no qualms in calling them out on their behaviour and getting them out of the playground.

I would feel very intimidated by what you describe. I go to the playground to play with my DC and the only social interaction I would welcome there is the occasional quiet word or chat with another parent. I certainly wouldn't want a large group commenting constantly on my DC.

And there are groups of white youths the world over who behave the same way. Sit on walls, swings and skate ramps and goad passers by. Exert power over them. Claim the territory as their own and enjoy making it uncomfortable for anyone else to use or pass through it.

Much like cat-calling builders, also invulnerable in a group and at height, with an overview of a populated area.

Like cat-calling, it's all about power versus vulnerability.

[quote MrsMayJune]@Naunet you’ve just proved the point that this is the direction this thread was going to go. The Rotherham case proves what? That brown men prey on white women?

Who has been the greatest danger to white women? Brown immigrants, is it?[/quote]
No, that some people think white women have no place to complain about men of their races, and if they do, they must be racist. Get a grip. Being none white does not give men a free pass to behave inappropriately.

And no, it doesn’t prove your point, as I’m not a “fragile” white woman.

@redcarbluecar

I also think nationality/ethnicity is an unhelpful area of focus here.

I think it's a pretty critical focus. She's in Malaysia, a country under a strong lockdown and crisis, where many lower income workers have been up to 9 weeks without pay. She mentions that these men are themselves likely migrants so highly likely to be low on cash, living in incredibly cramped accommodation and wanting to get out. Malaysia is also a majority-Muslim country with very different culture and expectations when it comes to womens' treatment and behaviour.

Are they possibly trying to talk to the toddler to get the attention of the OP? Possibly. Should they be playing on the childrens' swing? No. Is OP in a position to make a fuss, as someone hugely more advantaged? Absolutely not.

@SimonJT - where is the heavy focus on their race? It's mostly been mentioned by you and a few other posters who seem intent on this being "racist fragile white woman".

@Naunet, of yeah that chestnut of using their race of immigration status to make excuses for them. How kind. You mean like when we say, “you speak well for an immigrant “. We’re just being nice, aren’t we.

OP you not only brought that they are immigrants in but you also made sure to signal that you are a different immigrant to them. How else do you think we were able to tell your race versus theirs? And please don’t claim now that we’ve got it wrong because you would have corrected that earlier on.

These subtle but clear ways of othering people are demonising them is getting real old and these excuse of kindness being the reason for it is far too transparent.

[quote MrsMayJune]@Naunet, of yeah that chestnut of using their race of immigration status to make excuses for them. How kind. You mean like when we say, “you speak well for an immigrant “. We’re just being nice, aren’t we.

OP you not only brought that they are immigrants in but you also made sure to signal that you are a different immigrant to them. How else do you think we were able to tell your race versus theirs? And please don’t claim now that we’ve got it wrong because you would have corrected that earlier on.

These subtle but clear ways of othering people are demonising them is getting real old and these excuse of kindness being the reason for it is far too transparent.[/quote]
You are being ridiculous. Mentioning someone’s race, does not make someone racist. Seriously, you’re trying to shift the focus of male behaviour onto perceived racism.

I am 99% sure they are calling to your DD as a way of engaging with you. Which still isn't great, but just in the usual way.

@OverTheRubicon as I said, I have no problem with them being in the park. It's a nice place and lots of adults use it. We have plenty of nice interactions with other adults using the park, of all races/social classes. Waves, hellos, maybe a conversation. It's this particular group and their repetitive calling to DD that I don't like.

So he's worried that someone might mention sexual assault when he's doing a totally normal thing (picking up his grandkids) and therefore we're not allowed to discuss male behaviour and whether it is harmful? Riiight. Makes sense.

You did bring up sexual assault when PP mentioned he felt uncomfortable. PP said he was worried about what people might think and then you went on to talk at length about the very thing he was worried about.

Personally, I've experienced and quite liked strangers and slight acquaintances, male and female, interacting with my child; chatting to her on the bus, saying hello in the park, shop assistants talking to her. It's nice, contributes to a sense of community.

I'm there, they acknowledge me and act appropriately. If not, I distance us promptly.

That's a very different thing from shouting at her repeatedly, disrupting her play, demanding that she give them her attention.

I didn't even think of their race or the country OP was from. I was imagining it in my local park and I'd be keeping my kid well away if men were hanging around in groups and calling out to her. In my park you might get a quiet muffled hello from someone and a chat with the parents but no one tries to talk to the children that much. Maybe a little hello and a "oh thats a nice stick/rock/doll" etc you have there. No demands for waving or attention.

SinoAZ I didn't say it was okay,I said it was relevant.

The people falling over themselves to say culture is irrelevant are being incredibly naive. Social norms are very different in some countries to others - nothing to do with race, but the complex mix of religion and history and laws and everything else that forms national and regional cultures.

Nothing to do with behaviour being objectively acceptable, although its obtuse not to recognise that everyone is bringing cultural baggage in terms of expectations.
It would be a very different context if this was happening in a park in England - or in a different way India or in another different way Egypt or different again South Africa or different again Spain etc etc than Malaysia and nothing is achieved by ignoring that.

It's not massively different from the many ways that men try to get women's attention pretty much anywhere in the world. Certainly I was constantly pestered by men as a young woman in London. It doesn't mean that they're going to do anything terrible, but it does mean that as women we can't go about our business undisturbed.
Has anyone ever seen groups of women in parks calling out to dad's with babies?

lottiegarbanzo Cross post. That's exactly what I tried to explain. There is such a difference between normal interaction with a child and pressuring them to wave/demand attention.

Reminds me of when I used to live in the Middle East and people were very friendly towards my three DC. It was (mostly) lovely and I think related to a lot of people being away from their own families.
There was a bit of a fright one day though when I was walking through an underground car park with them and the car park security guy picked one of my 3yr old twins up and pretended to run off. He was laughing and saying ‘I take this one’. I guess it was good that he saw it as obviously innocent fun but did give me a moment of worry.
It was sad to see the huge numbers of people in the ME away from their families though. Sounds as though Malaysia has similar issues.

@nancywhitehead

I don't think grown ups should be out playing on swings in a large group - that's a bit odd if they don't have their own kids there too. Why would a group of adults choose to hang around in a children's playpark?

I can understand sitting on a picnic table or on the grass or whatever as a group, but actually playing on the swings is weird.

I'm not saying there's anything dodgy going on but I just think it's odd and I'd be uncomfortable about it too - parks are for kids, if you don't have kids, why are you there? And especially shouting out to children that you don't know?

I don't know what you should do about it, but I can understand your concern.

Do you know any other parents who use this park? If so maybe you could ask around, find out if other people are also finding this uncomfortable and go from there.

I'm nearly 70, admittedly if I go to the park I am with GC but if it's quiet I always have a go on the swings. It never occurred to me it was weird. I wouldn't do it if there were kids wanting to go on the swings but if they are empty I can't see I'm doing any harm.

OP when you say repetitive calling to your DD what do you mean? I’m trying to picture what’s happening.

They repeatedly call to your DD and did you say anything to them? The intervals of these calls? Were there no other people or kids about?

You also describe it as catcalling. To me catcalling has a sexual element to it. If they were repeatedly catcalling her, did no one intervene?

I’m just trying to understand what was going on with these immigrants, loitering and repeatedly catcalling a toddler to “demand” her attention.

Reminds me of the lady in Central Park who was being attacked by a black man who was several metres away from her.

I think it's very weird and I wouldn't like them shouting hello to my child either! One hello is sufficient but if it's a children's park they shouldn't be on the swings and equipment anyway! Very odd

If someone feels intimidated, shouldn’t you believe her rather than jumping to the “Karen” accusation (as per pp mentioning Central Park incident)?

I think I know when a group are being merely friendly or inappropriately friendly. We are conditioned to be polite but sometimes you get a gut feeling of discomfort.