Absent father taking DS abroad

[Hopelessandlost]

Hi

DS is 3, his dad only sees him when he wants to. Ive always contacted him every other week offering different times, locations etc but he hardly shows up

He has never been in our son's life and even when he sees DS, he just talks to me about legal stuff and how I should contact the Home Office and tell them how he's a great dad, so they should let him stay here (came on a spouse visa which was curtailed due to our divorce, now he's trying to stay here on the basis of our son)

Anyways, he started talking about how he wants to take DS back to his home country for 3 weeks next year as his parents want to see him

Can he do this even though he hardly sees DS? Our son cries everytime his dad comes near him, he's non verbal so he cannot express himself. I want them to have a relationship which is why I always message him asking him to let me know when hes free

Solicitor is trying to put together an agreement for contact and has put supervised, then unsupervised..then overnights

Ex is saying 'hes wont die if i take him back home will he?' No but it would be great if DS was comfortable with him first

Is he allowed to force DS to go abroad even though hes pretty much absent and wont spend longer than 45 mins when he shows up?

Not a hope in hell. If his fathers Indian he could end up stuck there if the dad refuses to return him. Put the passport in a safe or similar.

No is a complete sentence.

You need a better solicitor too

[quote Hopelessandlost]@Conchitastrawberry he is getting assessed for ASD, so really don't want to mess anything up for him as he's already very upset with changes to routine and when we go to the park, he will just stand there and hardly play especially when his dad is there because to him, he's a stranger

@QueeniesCroft That's a good idea, because then he can never say I never gave him any dates and times and if it goes to court I can show I offered[/quote]
@Hopelessandlost - even more reason then. I’m sure if it comes to it you can get professional reports to show how detrimental this would be. We took my autistic son abroad when he was 3. Even being with two familiar parents - the airport, journey and unfamiliar surroundings really affected him. It was hellish! We’ve never done it since and he’s 22 now. Every change, new place etc has taken weeks to organise through social stories and desensitisation etc. I wish you all the best x

@AdultingAvoidance I’m so sorry that happened to you. It’s unimaginable.

Same to other pps who have posted similarly

Oh God Adulting, I just can't even begin to imagine the pain

Some great advice here and as many people have recommended prioritise getting a specialist solicitor who can help you take the steps to stop your DS being removed from the country.

It used to be called an All Ports Alert where airports, ferry ports etc are notified of kids who are flagged at risk of abduction. Reunite should be able to guide you on all of this.

You might be worrying about the court process while he is applying for an Indian passport. Best of luck.

Whereabouts are you roughly OP? (Only say if you feel comfortable) Wondering if anyone could help with solicitor recommendations. I am not convinced the one you have currently, is any good.

Nope nope nope

I’d go one step further and give the child’s passport to a trusted family member or friend to hide so if I was ever “burgled”, they would never find it.

Just adding my voice to the resounding chorus of NOPE, NOT A CHANCE IN HELL.

I see you've already heard it and are responding appropriately - but I agree that you need to be hypervigilant, do not let him be alone with your son AT ALL, and talk to your solicitor about preventing your ex from getting an Indian passport for your son.

The All Ports Alert is essential too. It might all seem like overkill to you at the moment, but since child abduction happens all too frequently, it's better to go overboard with it all now than regret it later.

I'm sorry that you are in this situation but now you are, you need to protect your boy in every way possible. I would also, once the court case is done, stop trying to get your ex to have a relationship with your son, as it's of no benefit to your son at this stage (and may never be).

I have no idea of it is possible but is it possible to contact the births deaths and marriages offices and request that a note is attached to your son's birth cert preventing a copy being issued.

I also agree that you need to look for a new, better solicitor.

Do everything now that you’d do if the worst happened.

Not on your nelly

No way. And I'd stop chasing him for contact too.

This!

A disinterested father is the second worst possible option for a child with only an overtly abusive one being worse

I split from ex when dd a toddler.

I pursued and bent over backwards - actually more pretzel like - for dd to have contact with her dad, when from immediately as we split he was clearly disinterested.

I've seen the heartache this has caused my dd.

I've since seen and discussed this issue with many and come to the conclusion that:

Ideal - engaged and loving dad who has a lot of contact whenever possible

Next best - completely absent dad - a child doesn't miss what they've never had

Second worst - disinterested dad who only sees child when it suits, isn't really interested in them and contact stresses child or even distresses them

Worst - abusive father

Where is he from? Because even aside from the contact issues you're having at present, there's also the concern that he take your child overseas - with or without your consent - and refuses to return and even countries that are also party to The Hague convention, it can be incredibly difficult to get a child returned and with some countries outwits the convention it can be near impossible.

Lock down child's passport and also alert relevant authorities to potential issue here - I would think solicitor would know how to do that

India not in Hague convention so hell no!

I can't see a judge/court agreeing to his request given :

Son doesn't have a true established and comfortable relationship with dad
Son possibly has asd and change is distressing to him
Ex's Visa/leave to remain issues
COVID
Lack of Hague convention backup

I really don't think he'll even get unsupervised access initially. Listen to and be guided by your solicitor - they not only know the law they know the local family judges and how they're likely to lean.

They've seen it all before and know all the tricks and tactics.

No chance. If he goes back to ‘visit’ he will never come back and will hand your ds to his parents to raise. It’s all a ruse. As you say his visa is cancelled, if he leaves your ex isn’t coming back.
And, don’t chase him for contact. He needs to fail that. Also, don’t make him out to be a good dad in court and lie for him, he sounds shit.

No bloody way

In whose interests is the trip, OP? For the child to go with a parents with whom he's had next to no contact or for a father to either help with a residency claim though if his visa is cancelled then he might not be able to return even if that's his intention or to permanently relocate and palm your DS to his GPs permanently. Let him demonstrate several years of supervised contact while your son is assessed as that would be in your DS' interests. If GPs want to see him then your ex might need to save for their flights to come here. I'm only surprised he didn't make more effort over the last three years to support a residency claim.

Good luck.

Absolutely not. And I would ensure visits are supervised going forward.

Absolutely not at all!!

@Hopelessandlost

No way, because his parents told me 'you better hand over our grandson' and I worry he will never come back.

He's basically taking me to court - because his visa was cancelled and he had to make a court application to show he wants to see his son, and they shouldnt send him back home

His solicitor also sent my solicitor an agreement and said if its agreed before the court date, we wont need to go court. So my solicitor has made changes so its fair to our son

At this point im happy to go to court, especially now that hes saying this

his parents told me 'you better hand over our grandson' That's really threatening. Make sure you tell your solicitor exactly what they said, and that you believe if your ex took your son to his parents, there is the very real risk that they will kidnap him. The very thought makes my blood run cold, but I know it happens. His parents have no legal right to access your son. And I'm sure you already have, but make sure your solicitor knows, and brings it up, that your son gets upset when your ex is there. His team would likely argue that that is a reason for increased contact, but the court would hopefully call for all contact to be supervised. I wouldn't be one bit happy with unsupervised. Your baby is only 3. It's heartbreaking that your ex is trying to use him and is putting his own needs first, so put your baby AND you first and look after yourselves. Your son needs you. Don't contact your ex to arrange contact.

How are his parents communicating with you? My text, whats app, phonecall etc. If it is by phonecalls please download a recording app. Text, whats app etc please screenshot but also print off. If you can afford to buy a cheap printer and print off all communication from your ex and his parents and give to a trusted friend to keep a record of. Alert any playgroups/creche etc about him. Also you need to change to a specialist solicitor.

I have literally zero experience of these things so i have no idea if this is possible, but if he is bullying you to tell the home office he is a good father so he gets a visa, can you not write a letter informing them of that and detailing how little he sees his son etc? As him not getting a visa seems the best option for you and your son

This may be totally not a thing so apologies if its not

1. Is he on the birth certificate? If so, he can get a new passport for him independent of you, and by the time you realise your son is gone, it's too late. Without a court order preventing him, which only a Prohibited Steps or Child Arrangements Order could sort, you would have no ability to take preventative action. Police would have to tell you to rely on the civil courts - and India doesn't recognise their authority on this one.

2. India is NOT a signatory to The Hague Convention On Child Abduction. If your son goes there with his father, then you could well never see him again. Sadly, I'm not joking. I would secure a Prohibited Steps Order around this yesterday, in your shoes - that would also mean the police could retrieve him and an All Ports alert go out if your child were removed from your care. Right now, if your ex is on the birth certificate and there are no court orders in place, then he has all the rights you do.

3. A charity exists precisely to stop this. They have a list of recommended solicitors. I really, really can't tell you to use one strongly enough. The law around this is very specific, but the average high street solicitor may not have encountered a case requiring them to know it. You don't want to learn that your lawyer was not expert enough because you have lost your son.

I don't mean to sound dramatic, but this is a very genuine risk. That's why there is an established and expert charity at all. Because so many parents have found themselves in this position, before realising that they may have no way out of it. Prevention, here, is immeasurably better than cure.

No no no

Stop pushing for contact. Let him do all the chasing. Keep records of everything you have to provide you have not tried to stop him seeing his son.

Do not let him have overnight access at all I’d go as far as unsupervised access. Even without your DSs passport he could try getting a fake one to take him overseas or use someone else’s.

My friend, a grown man was held in India against his will. He was tricked into going back after his family told him his dad had had a heart attack. He hadn’t. It was because his family found out he had married a Muslim woman in secret. They’re actually got married in India in secret but didn’t tell anyone until he managed to get her a spousal visa out of the country. His family demanded he divorce her or be cut off (he was the son and heir) he refused. His family took his passport and he had no recourse, he had several policemen and politicians as relatives all working with his dad. After a couple of months they said they would accept the marriage if she returned to India to meet them. My friend said not a chance. Even when her own dad got sick they both knew what would happen to her if she returned. Eventually I think it was about 9 months later someone gave him his passport and he got the first flight out of there.

Do not take any chances at all with allowing your child to be alone with him. He sounds like all he cares about is his visa.