To be utterly shocked by the penalty charge notices I have received from Waltham Forest?

[libertybonds]

I'm interested to know whether I am just a bad driver. I have received two penalty charge notices from Waltham Forest based on CCTV footage for the following 'offences.' I should mention that I don't know these roads and I was using satnav:

1. I approached a large junction. Painted on the road was an indication that you could go left or straight. I mistakenly thought the bus lane was the left turn lane so I moved there to turn. There were no buses around, and in the footage it's clear that I moved to this lane just as I approached the junction. I'm 100% sure that after I turned left I realised my error and moved to the correct lane. Again, no buses anywhere in sight.

1. I entered into a box junction behind a large vehicle. Traffic suddenly slowed and the tail end of my vehicle was in the junction. In the footage, you can actually see me move my vehicle into a lane that would take me in the wrong direction from where I wanted to go in order to move out of the box junction.

So, who is right? Me or Waltham Forest? Do I deserve to pay a combined £260 for these offences?

Take it as an expensive lesson, you won't make the same mistakes again.

But frankly it seems difficult to avoid getting a PNC given how minor these offences are. What other terrible things might I accidentally do

Ffs, how do you think everyone else manages this without getting fines left, right and centre every month. Just be familiar with the road rules and drive to them and you may end up with one every few years if that.

@VerticalHorizon

Road markings 'cutting off the lane' are there - but only visible if the lane is empty. If you follow a bus, you're done for. There SHOULD be prior warning, but there isn't.

If you are in London you learn that you don't just follow the bus, as bus lanes make no sense.

Lots of them are 24-7 ones. Others are only in operation at certain times of the day.

So if you can't read the sign you don't go into the bus lane.

Well hang on. Your post said “a bunch of people” which implied lots of the posters responding. If you meant just one poster (I can only see one who has used that phrase) then say it to that one poster. @MotionActivatedDog - that was your post. I replied to you- have you been at the special brownies?

YANBU to be annoyed at the level of fine, but YABU not to say it will happen again. Surely you just try to be more careful?

Anyway social care has to be paid for somehow.

Going against the trend here- I think those are ridiculous fines for minor errors of judgement. You won't be able to appeal them, you were in the wrong, but I think the whole system is set up for maximum profit, not with road safety in mind. The whole culture of using automated systems to punish people for being human and making mistakes doesn't sit at all well with me.

(I was thinking this just today as I was driving through an unfamiliar large town, and I nearly ended up in a bus lane- I was just so thankful I wasn't in London! I'm a very experienced, competent driver, but road signs/markings are not always obvious, especially at 25-30mph)

@Onehotmess you said you’d never used a phrase that you did in fact use.

There are two issues here for the OP.

She’s made a couple of minor, easy to make errors which have landed her with a strict liability fine, which she might or might not be able to appeal. This is not the end of the world, most London drivers will do it at least once.

Much more worrying is the fact that she didn’t realise the nature of her offences and was surprised that they landed her with automatic fines. That’s why she needs to go away and read the Highway Code.

*If you are in London you learn that you don't just follow the bus, as bus lanes make no sense.

Lots of them are 24-7 ones. Others are only in operation at certain times of the day.

So if you can't read the sign you don't go into the bus lane.*

Nice in theory, but in practice you can easily be doing no harm in the inside lane, and just happen to be behind a bus. It's not so much a case of following it, but merely being behind it when a popup bus lane appears and you're fooked!

Yes it's rife in London, I used to work and drive there. On frequent routes, you get to know the lanes, but infrequent travellers it really is a dire setup.

I seem to recall a recent case where a council was criticised for excessive signage, which is also just as bad. I think the defendant won their case and proved that they had to read about 50 signs in 30 seconds to be sure of noticing the specific one the council deemed adequate!

I think I've had 2 or 3 such penalty notices in 28 years of driving. 2 in 6 months and you maybe need to be a little more careful.

@Freckers both of these were accidental? I didn't think I would be caught out in the box thing. I sincerely didn't realise I was in a bus lane.

I'm a very experienced driver in another part of the world where slightly different traffic rules apply, and where there is no CCTV enforcement. Minor errors aren't fined like this unless someone causes an accident or a police officer sees you (though this probably wouldn't happen where there is a clearly unintentional mistake). Maybe it's the culture here - so strict and unforgiving.

Maybe it's the culture here

It’s that all right.

so strict and unforgiving

So money grabbing and greedy.

[quote libertybonds]@yourestandingonmyneck obviously not! But frankly it seems difficult to avoid getting a PNC given how minor these offences are. What other terrible things might I accidentally do?[/quote]
The vast majority of drivers never get fines so maybe do what they do and stick to the rules of the road.

We can all be careless once or twice and it's annoying that it's was so close together but if it's happening consistently you might want to consider some refresher driving lessons

@RedMarauder @VerticalHorizon

I avoid bus lanes at all costs. I wasn't following a bus.

I remember that my driving instructor made me drive in some bus lanes during certain hours and he told me that I would be penalised in the exam for not doing so!

@ThePlantsitter yes, you just treat each one as you would any roundabout. So you might have to go round 2 or 3 to get to where you are going. It works surprisingly well, but I was seriously freaked out the first time I saw that sign as I approached. I don’t think the random picture of the elephant helped. It made me think of the book Elephants on acid, and I figured the person who came up with the giant roundabout idea what possibly on the same!

[quote libertybonds]@Freckers both of these were accidental? I didn't think I would be caught out in the box thing. I sincerely didn't realise I was in a bus lane.

I'm a very experienced driver in another part of the world where slightly different traffic rules apply, and where there is no CCTV enforcement. Minor errors aren't fined like this unless someone causes an accident or a police officer sees you (though this probably wouldn't happen where there is a clearly unintentional mistake). Maybe it's the culture here - so strict and unforgiving.[/quote]
Out of interest did you have to take a UK driving test?

The simple thing with yellow boxes is don't enter them until your exit is clear

@Enb76

You won't get fined again if you obey the rules of the road. There is a place reserved in hell for people who ignore box junction - they're not just there to make the road look pretty.

This. Theres a box junction I "use" regularly. Traffic on the more major road I am trying to cross blocks the box junction every day and I often have to sit through several changes of the lights to get across.

You are in the wrong here.

Personal opinion is that these offences should not have been decriminalised and you should have the opportunity to put your case in the magistrates court. As with all alleged offences/crimes committed whilst driving, except perhaps overstaying when parking.

@Ch3rish yes, that's apparent. The traffic suddenly stopped flowing. I didn't think I would be in the box junction. Obviously it was a mistake.

@VerticalHorizon

I've been to this beauty!

AHH. The magic roundabout. I use to live in Hemel. That bloody roundabout was a pain in the arse.

The term is indeed “strict liability offence” no ifs, no buts, no question of intention. In defence of the UK road system, our road deaths are pretty much the best in the world. Unless you were previously in Scandinavia, that more forgiving approach to enforcement which you prefer goes along with many many additional deaths a year.

I got a PCN for £130, but this was reduced to £65 if I paid within 14 days... check the notice again, OP - it might only be half as bad as you think...

I entered into a box junction behind a large vehicle. Traffic suddenly slowed and the tail end of my vehicle was in the junction. In the footage, you can actually see me move my vehicle into a lane that would take me in the wrong direction from where I wanted to go in order to move out of the box junction.

OP, when you are driving you need to be thinking ahead, planning ahead and anticipating situations such as the traffic suddenly slowing or coming to a complete stop around junctions and in busy areas. You ending up going the wrong direction to the one you wanted in your desperation the clear the box shows you knew you were in the wrong and sounds a bit erratic.

But frankly it seems difficult to avoid getting a PNC given how minor these offences are. What other terrible things might I accidentally do?

It's not difficult to avoid getting a PNC, minor or not, accidental or not they are offences and you are liable because you committed them due to lack of concentration, awareness and planning.

I dread to think what other terrible things you might accidentally do.

Sorry OP but you are in the wrong, and although the fines seem draconian they are effective deterrents. I lived and drove in London for years before moving to Birmingham and honestly, while London drivers can be aggressive and impatient they are also generally pretty observant of these sorts of offences and fairly competent. Driving in Birmingham is like the wild west in comparison; these sorts of infractions aren't penalised in the same way and therefore no-one gives a shit about blocking a box junction.

You are allowed to enter a junction box and wait IF you are only waiting for oncoming traffic to become clear (turning right).