To be utterly shocked by the penalty charge notices I have received from Waltham Forest?

[libertybonds]

I'm interested to know whether I am just a bad driver. I have received two penalty charge notices from Waltham Forest based on CCTV footage for the following 'offences.' I should mention that I don't know these roads and I was using satnav:

1. I approached a large junction. Painted on the road was an indication that you could go left or straight. I mistakenly thought the bus lane was the left turn lane so I moved there to turn. There were no buses around, and in the footage it's clear that I moved to this lane just as I approached the junction. I'm 100% sure that after I turned left I realised my error and moved to the correct lane. Again, no buses anywhere in sight.

1. I entered into a box junction behind a large vehicle. Traffic suddenly slowed and the tail end of my vehicle was in the junction. In the footage, you can actually see me move my vehicle into a lane that would take me in the wrong direction from where I wanted to go in order to move out of the box junction.

So, who is right? Me or Waltham Forest? Do I deserve to pay a combined £260 for these offences?

YANBU. Fining people for actions that are technically offences but cause no problem to anyone is unnecessary and actually leads to poor driving - after a few of these, you stop thinking about what is safe or sensible and simply aim to follow all the rules to the letter.

Ps from the replies so far it looks like you have found a bunch of perfect people who have never made a mistake! What are the chances!?

As someone else has said, you need to rethink how you are wording this. They are not errors, they are offences, guidance and Highway Code is quite clear. The entering the box one is easy to resolve, perhaps re-read your Highway Code, as it states you shouldn’t even enter the box unless you know it’s clear to exit, you need to forward think more. You’ve committed driving offences, you have to pay the fine.

The economy is fucked with Covid and Brexit, they're gonna get the money in by any means possible. The cameras are cash machines and whilst I agree we need to obey the rules the fines are OTT.

@Onehotmess

Ps from the replies so far it looks like you have found a bunch of perfect people who have never made a mistake! What are the chances!?

Far from it.

But when I make a mistake I admit I have made a mistake and deal with it. I certainly don’t make plans to repeat that mistake monthly!

It does seem bad luck you were caught out twice. I'm sure people get away with a lot worse. But as to appealing them you wouldn't have a chance

Now you know what you did wrong you will be more cautious in future and not make the same mistakes again surely? Therefore this won't be a monthly fine?

Plan ahead when you are driving somewhere you don't know, don't just blindly follow the satnav.

Easy to judge OP. But consider for example Birmingham City Council took nearly £2 million in bus lane charges from routes that were judged to have inadequate and confusing signage. The few drivers who contested the charge are cleared of any wrongdoing, but the Council will not be returning its ill-gotten gains to the many who paid up.

Fining people for actions that are technically offences

Nothing technical about it they are offences. Abiding by the rules of the road does NOT lead to poor driving, what a bizarre conclusion.

@Onehotmess

Ps from the replies so far it looks like you have found a bunch of perfect people who have never made a mistake! What are the chances!?

I live just outside London and have made a couple of mistakes; driving into a bus lane on a Sunday, when I thought it was outside of operational hours (the other bus lane half a mile away in the same borough can be used on Sundays) etc. I don’t think anyone is professing to be perfect - more that they accept mistakes can happen, so you pay up and learn from it!

You shouldn't ever be stationary with even part of your vehicle in a box junction. You shouldn't enter it until your exit is clear.

Unless you're turning

Oh OP, I live in WF and I share your pain. Previous penalties I have received include parking with 2 wheels on the verge, turning right into a road you can only turn left into (no signs at road entrance or on road, you have to know to look at a sign on a post 10 metres back) and various others over the years.

If you pay immediately you pay half, if you appeal they will generally refuse your appeal and dare you to take it to court, which nobody has time for. Meanwhile the road systems get ever more convoluted, the signage is ever changing and unclear, and the possibility of innocently getting it wrong increase.

They really don't like cars and drivers, and I am also thinking it is not worth it (since they have also buggered up the traffic).

Wow, that seems steep for making minor errors with road markings that didn’t lead to an accident.

In contrast:
Another parent driving to school hit me sending me flying. Ambulance was called etc.
I was about 100 yards from the same school she was driving to, walking my son. She cried to the judge (big heaving sobs) and got fined a paltry €100 for careless driving. I felt very ragey that day!

@Onehotmess

YANBU to be annoyed. These are cash cows for councils because people make minor errors every day. However, you did make those errors so sadly have to pay.

Are they though? Box junctions in particular are there to reduce congestion by stopping people blocking junctions - it's not accidental that they are on railway crossings too. These rules and markings are to stop ignorant/selfish/inattentive people blocking up roads. Everyone could stop paying the councils by driving properly.

My comment was more aimed at people saying ‘there’s a special place in hell for people like you’ ‘go and read the highway code’ etc. Those were the replies that stood out. Don’t remember what you said, sorry.

@Onehotmess

Ps from the replies so far it looks like you have found a bunch of perfect people who have never made a mistake! What are the chances!?

I’m not really sure what you want people to say. Do you want people to tell OP she didn’t break the rules? Because she did. Mistakenly, but she did. Do you want people to say she shouldn’t pay the fines? Because that won’t end well for OP. She’ll be pursued for them.

I do agree both "offences" were petty and money grabbing, but you were technically wrong. I wouldn't have done either thing tbh

Also the fine would be halved if you pay within two weeks. The most I’ve paid in London was £80

@yourestandingonmyneck obviously not! But frankly it seems difficult to avoid getting a PNC given how minor these offences are. What other terrible things might I accidentally do?

@Chanjer

You shouldn't ever be stationary with even part of your vehicle in a box junction. You shouldn't enter it until your exit is clear.

Unless you're turning

not quite....the whole line is "unless you are turning right and your way is only blocked by moving oncoming traffic"

If the penalties make you more careful, then they are worth it. For the safety of everyone else.

@libertybonds - You may well be able to appeal the box junction one if on the photos you can see that your lane (or the other lane) was clear ahead when you entered it. Look online for details of how to appeal, as there are set letters which people post online that include case references when such appeals were upheld. It's free to appeal, so you may as well give it a go.

The bus lane is normally more difficult to appeal, as you're expected to have seen the signs. You could argue that signage was unclear or you were new to the area, but it's unlikely to be accepted.

Finally usually there's a section on the notice that says the fines are halved if you pay within 14 days (this is extended if you appeal), so hopefully that's cheaper for you.

[quote libertybonds]@yourestandingonmyneck obviously not! But frankly it seems difficult to avoid getting a PNC given how minor these offences are. What other terrible things might I accidentally do?[/quote]
really? sounds like you need to retake your test!

Are you saying that only people who do those things on purpose should be fined?
It sucks and I'm surprised you weren't offered a reduction for fast payment. My husband has had a few fines and they all have said £x reduced to £y if you pay within z number of days.

I didn't know and/or I only did it briefly aren't acceptable defences I'm afraid

[quote leeloo1]@libertybonds - You may well be able to appeal the box junction one if on the photos you can see that your lane (or the other lane) was clear ahead when you entered it. Look online for details of how to appeal, as there are set letters which people post online that include case references when such appeals were upheld. It's free to appeal, so you may as well give it a go.

The bus lane is normally more difficult to appeal, as you're expected to have seen the signs. You could argue that signage was unclear or you were new to the area, but it's unlikely to be accepted.

Finally usually there's a section on the notice that says the fines are halved if you pay within 14 days (this is extended if you appeal), so hopefully that's cheaper for you.[/quote]
"new to the area" is not going to wash.