To be utterly shocked by the penalty charge notices I have received from Waltham Forest?

[libertybonds]

I'm interested to know whether I am just a bad driver. I have received two penalty charge notices from Waltham Forest based on CCTV footage for the following 'offences.' I should mention that I don't know these roads and I was using satnav:

1. I approached a large junction. Painted on the road was an indication that you could go left or straight. I mistakenly thought the bus lane was the left turn lane so I moved there to turn. There were no buses around, and in the footage it's clear that I moved to this lane just as I approached the junction. I'm 100% sure that after I turned left I realised my error and moved to the correct lane. Again, no buses anywhere in sight.

1. I entered into a box junction behind a large vehicle. Traffic suddenly slowed and the tail end of my vehicle was in the junction. In the footage, you can actually see me move my vehicle into a lane that would take me in the wrong direction from where I wanted to go in order to move out of the box junction.

So, who is right? Me or Waltham Forest? Do I deserve to pay a combined £260 for these offences?

Op you really need to pay attention more when you’re driving!

You may not like the rules, you may not agree with them but you they are the rules.

To have three incidents in such a short space of time is nuts!

When I got my licence in the US 20 odd years ago, I made sure I knew what the rules were, probably thought some of them were utterly ridiculous but they were the rules. I had no tickets and no accidents.

The trouble with using discretion is that it’s open to abuse. My beautiful friend ran a red light (totally by mistake) and was unfortunately right next to a police car. She rightly got stopped and ended up with the officers number rather than a ticket. Would this have had the same out come if she wasn’t good looking? I don’t know, maybe it would, maybe it wouldn’t. What I’m trying to say is that the rules are for everyone. Know the rules, obey them and you won’t get fined.

Afraid you can't go in boxes and you can't go in bus lanes.

Just have to suck it up and not do it again.

The bus lane thing, with your pictures, is definitely a pain in the backside. They should have a camera so close to the end. It must be for money generation.

The congestion charge and box junction - that's on you and indicates that you aren't paying sufficient care and attention. If you can miss the massive amount of signage for the congestion charge zone, what else might you miss?

You're going to have to pay up (fight he bus lane one though) and pay more attention to the roads. Driving in London is dangerous and you need to be attentive.

Minor errors aren't fined like this unless someone causes an accident or a police officer sees you

You forget CCTV. Every minor error is seen and fined accordingly.

Like the retail park parking that igelkott2021 describes. It is fine if you are familiar with the layout but as an outsider parking there for the first time you might read the signs but not realise that B&Q is out of bounds.

I find that a lot of times the signage is so poor or it is designed to catch you out and is either a money making scheme or someone has not placed the signs correctly to take account of other road restrictions.

It is also the way councils think you should know their road layouts

I am atm fighting a PCN issued in Chiswick as I went down a road that is apparently permit holders only. I was actually told to park in a particular buildings car park on this particular road. No idea how I was supposed to get to this building without using this road.

Apparently when I came to leave I turned the wrong way down the road. (No immediate signs saying not to turn right) then I saw a sign saying 150m restrictions would apply permit holders only. I actually thought it referred to parking. I didn’t realise in 150m I should not be driving on the road.
Even so at that point I had no option but to continue down the road. There were no other through roads to go down.

The US has 3x the road deaths per person or per car than the UK and twice the number of deaths per billion km (which I guess evens out how much driving happens)

EnjoyingTheSilence

With all due respect the US is so much easier to drive in (although I hate if you come off the interstate you can’t immediately return to it if you have come off too soon)

Your friend even without a police car there when she ran a red light would have automatically been fined.

We have CCTV everywhere and you are automatically fined for every minor error.

@Bythemillpond but my friend should have got a ticket. She wasn’t paying attention. She only got away with it because she’s was stunningly good looking. That is not right.

I’ve got a ticket once for being in a box junction. Has made me more cautious when approaching them now to make sure I have room to exit. Op has said she will pay more attention now and obey the rules. Job done!

And I don’t think driving in the US is easier. It’s different.

I agree with PPs that you need to suck it up and pay the fine for committing these offenses. I also think you need to reacquaint yourself with the Highway Code.

However, I'd agree that the amounts were steep. I accidentally drove over the Tyne bridge in Newcastle in the bus lane. The fine was £30 if paid within 14 days. It was enough to teach me a lesson. I've not done it again. (I've not been to Newcastle since!)

I rarely need a Sat Nav in the US
Even in NY I could find my way around quite easily and driving was a lot more relaxing than navigating the streets of London. The cars are automatic. There is less CCTV so you can make a slight split second error and put it right without getting a £65 fine and or points on your licence.

The only place I have ever had difficulty and my natural Sat Nav failed me was Key West

I have driven all over Europe in a right hand drive van and car and 4 American states and never had a single fine.
Yet I regularly get fines through the post.
If I think the signage was wrongly placed then I will fight it.

@Bythemillpond no it wasn't but if the shoe fits?

MondeoFan

My van and I stick to the slow lane

There are forums on the internet to check technicalities and contest fines. Might be worth checking them out.

I find these fines terrible, 130 quid for a 1st offence is outrageous, far far too often the markings for these things are poorly done or obscured to the point that only locals and regulars really know what you can and can not do. I got hit by this by going down a road that then became bus only meaning I had to do a U-turn to escape, when I sent back and looked there was a sign that on the day I could not see because of a bush in front of it. The road markings are not helpful because it said things like Cutting way bus only which doesn't help if you are a visitor and don't know the road names.

I think they should keep a record if the offences and ramp them up, say 10 quid for the 1st time, 30 the 2nd, 50 the third up to to the 130 from the 5th onwards. A ten quid fine is enough to teach people the lesson 1st time around and then the full wack for the persistent offenders.

@libertybonds

I'm interested to know whether I am just a bad driver. I have received two penalty charge notices from Waltham Forest based on CCTV footage for the following 'offences.' I should mention that I don't know these roads and I was using satnav:

1. I approached a large junction. Painted on the road was an indication that you could go left or straight. I mistakenly thought the bus lane was the left turn lane so I moved there to turn. There were no buses around, and in the footage it's clear that I moved to this lane just as I approached the junction. I'm 100% sure that after I turned left I realised my error and moved to the correct lane. Again, no buses anywhere in sight.

1. I entered into a box junction behind a large vehicle. Traffic suddenly slowed and the tail end of my vehicle was in the junction. In the footage, you can actually see me move my vehicle into a lane that would take me in the wrong direction from where I wanted to go in order to move out of the box junction.

So, who is right? Me or Waltham Forest? Do I deserve to pay a combined £260 for these offences?

You are in the wrong on both counts. There's always plenty of signage letting drivers know it's a bus lane, not knowing the road is not an excuse to not look for and read signs.

It's in the highway code, do not enter a box junction unless you can exit it without blocking or partially blocking it. Instead of waiting and doing this manoeuvre correctly you just followed another vehicle.

That makes you (to answer the question using your words) a bad driver. You deserve both fines, and yes the amount is also fair, fines are designed to be costly so you think twice about making the same mistake. If fines were a fiver for example, people would carry on driving badly and just pay the odd fiver when caught

[quote libertybonds]@MotionActivatedDog do you think it's fair for someone to be charged £130 every time they make a small error? I think that I may need to sell my car. I can't really afford to pay this every month. I have had a car since December and I haven't had any issues until being slammed with these two fines in one go.[/quote]
These aren't small errors, had you done them on a driving test you would have failed

@comebacksunshines

I'd take it to an online forum that is directed towards appealing these kind of offences. forums.pepipoo.com/ If you are quite new to driving, or are in an unfamiliar part of town then its easy to make a momentary mistake. The fine is totally over the top. You won't get much support here, they're all too busy wetting their knickers at the prospect of showing how perfect they are.

Surely of someone is new to driving they should be more aware of the rules, after all they studied they highway code very recently

[quote HarebrightCedarmoon]Yeah, I was just going to say, don't bother with Mumsnet, get straight onto the Money Saving Expert forums to see if there is any room for appeal.

Box junction is clear cut, you should never stop in one

Wrong - you can enter a box junction if you are waiting to turn right.

www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/road-junctions.html[/quote]
But she wasn't turning right, so pp are correct she shouldn't have driven on it as it was clear the other side

[quote leeloo1]@libertybonds - You may well be able to appeal the box junction one if on the photos you can see that your lane (or the other lane) was clear ahead when you entered it. Look online for details of how to appeal, as there are set letters which people post online that include case references when such appeals were upheld. It's free to appeal, so you may as well give it a go.

The bus lane is normally more difficult to appeal, as you're expected to have seen the signs. You could argue that signage was unclear or you were new to the area, but it's unlikely to be accepted.

Finally usually there's a section on the notice that says the fines are halved if you pay within 14 days (this is extended if you appeal), so hopefully that's cheaper for you.[/quote]
She won't win an appeal, she was behind a large vehicle so wouldn't have had a clear view of the road Infront of her. She made the manoeuvre not taking into account that traffic on the other side of the box could (and did) slow down and stop