To be utterly shocked by the penalty charge notices I have received from Waltham Forest?

[libertybonds]

I'm interested to know whether I am just a bad driver. I have received two penalty charge notices from Waltham Forest based on CCTV footage for the following 'offences.' I should mention that I don't know these roads and I was using satnav:

1. I approached a large junction. Painted on the road was an indication that you could go left or straight. I mistakenly thought the bus lane was the left turn lane so I moved there to turn. There were no buses around, and in the footage it's clear that I moved to this lane just as I approached the junction. I'm 100% sure that after I turned left I realised my error and moved to the correct lane. Again, no buses anywhere in sight.

1. I entered into a box junction behind a large vehicle. Traffic suddenly slowed and the tail end of my vehicle was in the junction. In the footage, you can actually see me move my vehicle into a lane that would take me in the wrong direction from where I wanted to go in order to move out of the box junction.

So, who is right? Me or Waltham Forest? Do I deserve to pay a combined £260 for these offences?

*screenshots of the junction

@Flamingdingus thanks! I already sent in appeals, which no doubt will be rejected

Typically, in the United States, a technical violation that doesn't cause any harm will generally be ignored.

Sure they will;

edition.cnn.com/2014/06/30/justice/arizona-jaywalking-arrest/index.html

www.reuters.com/article/oukoe-uk-usa-jaywalking-idUKN1841195220070120

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Minnesota
University Police occasionally cite individuals for jaywalking or riding bicycles on restricted sidewalks in areas surrounding the university, resulting in fines as high as $250. This is often done at the beginning of a school year or after pedestrians interfere with traffic.

Quite an exhilarating level of entitlement!

They will be 65 each if you pay within two weeks

@DynamoKev

These incidents don't prove your point:

1. There is no indication in these stories of whether the roads were busy and the jaywalking was unsafe

1. This links to the police discretion issue discussed upthread. As both of these people were minorities, I assume that they were unfairly picked on

1. To be entirely honest, police are dicks and they probably would have responded to these people being apologetic and bowing to their authority.

1. I have literally never heard of anyone I know getting in trouble for jaywalking. And I've personally done it a million times

1. The fact that these are news stories suggests there is something exceptional about them

LibertyBonds is hoping for a 50% reduction for only being half in the mire.

I don't see the benefit of making this a US vs UK thing. The US has used traffic light cameras for decades to fine people, and also use dash cam footage for the same. The same cries of "they just use it for money" and concerns have surveillance has discussed across the States for ages.

I also don't think we can say anything "generally" happens in the US systems. Minor misdemeanors and fourth-degree misdemeanors can get ignored, but they can also be fined higher than the UK depending on where you are and how the judge feels. Pleading not guilty, priors, demographic, just annoying the wrong person, all factors. It may be generally your experience, but that doesn't make it the American experience.

There are pros and cons, both could do with improvements and both may use too much surveillance, but there really isn't much point comparing the two as if it's one v the other. It's not. Most things you can complain about a UK system doing about traffic violations, there will be a US system doing the same (including bus lanes, which do exist in some of US's biggest cities).

@BiBabbles

I don't see the benefit of making this a US vs UK thing. The US has used traffic light cameras for decades to fine people, and also use dash cam footage for the same. The same cries of "they just use it for money" and concerns have surveillance has discussed across the States for ages.

I also don't think we can say anything "generally" happens in the US systems. Minor misdemeanors and fourth-degree misdemeanors can get ignored, but they can also be fined higher than the UK depending on where you are and how the judge feels. Pleading not guilty, priors, demographic, just annoying the wrong person, all factors. It may be generally your experience, but that doesn't make it the American experience.

There are pros and cons, both could do with improvements and both may use too much surveillance, but there really isn't much point comparing the two as if it's one v the other. It's not. Most things you can complain about a UK system doing about traffic violations, there will be a US system doing the same (including bus lanes, which do exist in some of US's biggest cities).

Agreed

@libertybonds I thought of you this morning, the end of bus lane sign is missing. I reckon you have a fair case. The sign showing the end isn’t there and the tarmac is in multiple shades as you approach the junction, it’s not clear at all- apart from the white left turn arrow showing you can go in the lane ahead

@BiBabbles I'm framing it as US v. UK because these are my points of reference. In the US, I have no problems at all. In the UK, I've gotten a load of penalty charge notices in a short time, much to my shock.

I didn't mention that I also got one for being in the Congestion Charge Zone, thanks to horrible traffic during the bank holiday weekend. I thought Google navigator would alert me or not take me into it. I was exhausted and rattled as it was a long drive with me and my poor daughter, who vomited in the back seat, and did not see the signs (I don't even know what they look like). The congestion charge zone is extremely confusing to me and I normally avoid central London at all costs. Anyway, that added to my frustration about this, though I accept that if I was in the Congestion Charge Zone and didn't pay in time, thems the breaks

@TheViewFromTheCheapSeats thanks! I already challenged the ticket so I'm not sure what I can do now. Presumably even if they know the sign is down, you have to actually use this in your defence?

But if nothing else, this reassures me that I'm not just a totally shit driver. It was so stressful to get all of these tickets when I truly do always try to comply with the law!

@libertybonds I don’t even live that close and I know a few people caught there. There is usually a blue line that says end of bus lane, I think it gets taken out by annoyed people. You see the red end, the arrow and you align for the junction. It’s an unusual one. Also every other bus lane here also has dashed lines to clearly mark the end, like these, if not a clear end to red tarmac.

The thing about london is it is busy and slow. If you try to cut time off the journey (for example by sneaking across the box when there's not enough space the other side) you risk penalties.

Also I would say - I don't think it's that common too be regularly caught out in this way. DH and I are mid thirties and neither of us has ever got a ticket for an infraction like this (and I would definitely say we are NOT perfect drivers). I think the key is to be extra cautious in any situation, especially involving bus lanes as traffic management is really geared up to protecting those.

congestion zone is pretty well signed, they warn you for ages that it's nearby and there are giant Cs on the road as well as signposts. You should be looking at the road and signage and your surroundings instead of relying on Sat Nav (which you blame for your penalty notices and Google navigator, which you are blaming for you congestion zone charges)

I am really careful with the congestion zone but there is a certain road you have to take when I am leaving London and I have missed the road a couple of times and you can’t then do anything and end up in the zone.

These things rely on you being a perfect driver and never making a mistake.
The only perfect driver is someone who doesn’t drive or drives so few miles only in the area they live and are familiar with

I drive 50,000 miles per year all over the country for various things. Fines are part of my life no matter how careful I am.
And some road signs are designed to catch you out.

Coming through London one evening there were road works. Signs directing traffic down a particular road.
I saw at the last minute that although the arrows pointed down the road other signs said not to go down that way.
I did a massive swerve and didn’t get a ticket. Could have cause an accident if there had been anyone around,

Later I saw that thousands of drivers had not seen the signs till it was too late and there was an uproar when they all received fines

I'm so glad I no longer live in London!

Waltham Forest gave me a ticket for turning right in a yellow box which you can do. Fight them

Islington and Waltham Forest are the worse

flashbac

I'm so glad I no longer live in London

London isn’t the only area to put up dodgy sign posts or have parking restrictions where you are not used to them being

Never have I ever needed to pay for parking in a supermarket car park or at a retail park.

Bet you're a middle Lane hogger too?

MondeoFan

Was that aimed at me?

London isn’t the only area to put up dodgy sign posts or have parking restrictions where you are not used to them being. Never have I ever needed to pay for parking in a supermarket car park or at a retail park

You often have to pay to park in a supermarket car park because it's not actually theirs, it's a council car park that just happens to be behind a supermarket.

But there's a nasty one in Farnborough in Hampshire where there's a retail park next to a B&Q, with separate car parks. Both car parks are free, but if you park in the retail park and decide to go into B&Q, you will get a "fine" (it's private) because you are only allowed to use the retail park car park for the shops in the retail park. Even though B&Q is a few metres away. And even if you also use the shops in the retail park. If you want B&Q you have to go back to your car and drive the 10m or so. Great for the environment.

The remark about middle lane sitting is silly - how does that have anything to do with going in a bus lane.

I agree people need to rely less on satnavs though, including lorry and bus drivers who seem to think following satnav is a good enough excuse to drive into railway bridges...

You often have to pay to park in a supermarket car park because it's not actually theirs, it's a council car park that just happens to be behind a supermarket

I don’t know a single supermarket in my area and beyond that you have to pay to park.
Or retail parks that you have to pay to park
There are time restrictions of 2 or 3 hours but no tickets to buy

Minor errors aren't fined like this unless someone causes an accident or a police officer sees you

I fail to see the sense in this, minor highway errors can lead on to crashes and people getting hurt. Better to fine people early on so they don't repeat their errors and later cause someone to get hurt.

prevention is surely better than waiting till something bad happens and then dealing with it. Bit like no point shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

TBH Id rather a 2 week ban on driving so people really appreciate their driving licence, two weeks isn't long enough to lose your job but long enough to be caring a lot about how safely we all drive