To be utterly shocked by the penalty charge notices I have received from Waltham Forest?

[libertybonds]

I'm interested to know whether I am just a bad driver. I have received two penalty charge notices from Waltham Forest based on CCTV footage for the following 'offences.' I should mention that I don't know these roads and I was using satnav:

1. I approached a large junction. Painted on the road was an indication that you could go left or straight. I mistakenly thought the bus lane was the left turn lane so I moved there to turn. There were no buses around, and in the footage it's clear that I moved to this lane just as I approached the junction. I'm 100% sure that after I turned left I realised my error and moved to the correct lane. Again, no buses anywhere in sight.

1. I entered into a box junction behind a large vehicle. Traffic suddenly slowed and the tail end of my vehicle was in the junction. In the footage, you can actually see me move my vehicle into a lane that would take me in the wrong direction from where I wanted to go in order to move out of the box junction.

So, who is right? Me or Waltham Forest? Do I deserve to pay a combined £260 for these offences?

If you were stationary in the box junction and caught on camera there is not much you can do about that one.

However for the bus lane:
The guidelines for enforcement of bus lanes in London (and elsewhere) state that the operator should observe a vehicle travelling along a bus lane for at least 20 metres before he issues a Penalty Charge Notice

So if you didnt travel 20m or more in it you should appeal.

I really don't think that you should be driving.

@safariboot

Easy to judge OP. But consider for example Birmingham City Council took nearly £2 million in bus lane charges from routes that were judged to have inadequate and confusing signage. The few drivers who contested the charge are cleared of any wrongdoing, but the Council will not be returning its ill-gotten gains to the many who paid up.

judged to have inadequate and confusing signage. Have you got a link to this ? - I googled and all I can find is an FOI request that shows the figure mentioned - nothing about inadequate signage.

There's a bus lane in Stockport in the RIGHT HAND LANE where 99% of people would never expect it, and it's very sudden.
Technically, of course, you'd be in the wrong for entering it, but it boils my p**s every time I see it.

Yes, @MotionActivatedDog that’s exactly what I said isn’t it?
I meant the replies like ‘there’s a special place in hell’ etc. Just thought people would be more understanding of minor errors = massive fine. I’d be pi**ed off too.

Waltham Forest are notorious for penalties for things others would ignore (Its got to be 10 years since I was fined for having a tiny bit of one tyre on a really low bit of pavement on a Sunday and it still wrankles. Yes I was at fault but still...) You have my sympathies and I bet you won't do it again

You’re a new driver. This was bad luck. I’ve been driving 20 years, had a few parking tickets and two SP30s but nothing else.

You’re overreacting, I understand why, but now you know. Be more observant when driving and you’ll be fine.

Box junction is clear cut, you should never stop in one. I’m more sympathetic for the bus lane as sometimes they are quite confusing and not well marked

take some responsibility!
sat nav doesn't magically absolve you.

you don't sound like a great driver, if you're going to sell the car then do so because of this rather than the fact the you will rack up fines because you refuse to drive properly

It’s part of the cost of driving, you have to be very very careful and observant. Pay straight away and the fine will be reduced by 50%, and try not to do it again.

Really sorry for you OP, those amounts are really gutting.

Out of interest from other posters - I didn't get a charge because i don't think there were cameras, but last month i ended up being just still in the box junction because a car cut me up and pulled in front of me.

Would I still have been charged?

"But frankly it seems difficult to avoid getting a PNC given how minor these offences are."

It's so easy to avoid. Just drive properly.

How is it hard to wait until you can clearly exit the box? Or to not drive in a bus lane.

Those fines are a pisstake, especially as so many places make their roads deliberately confusing or the rules unclear, in order to generate fine income.

There's loads of info on money saving expert about appealing etc op.

As someone else posted - the box junction is clear cut. Bus lanes are notoriously bad, and sometimes, it's actually impossible to see the signage until you're already in the lane (if you're behind a bus, for example). I've also seen signage obscured by trees, which technically should get you off if you can be bothered to fight it.

it's not always down to bad driving.

@Onehotmess

Yes, *@MotionActivatedDog* that’s exactly what I said isn’t it? I meant the replies like ‘there’s a special place in hell’ etc. Just thought people would be more understanding of minor errors = massive fine. I’d be pi**ed off too.

Well hang on. Your post said “a bunch of people” which implied lots of the posters responding. If you meant just one poster (I can only see one who has used that phrase) then say it to that one poster.

Go back and read the small print on the letter, it’s likely that you’ll get a 50% discount if you pay quickly.

Treat it as an expensive lesson. An awful lot of London drivers have learned the hard way like you to be completely paranoid about about box junctions and bus lanes. Every time you see a bus lane going unused by cars even though it’s not operating at the moment, every time you see a huge gap around a box junction, that’s because we’ve learned to not take a chance unless we’re 100% sure.

If you can't see a bus lane is a bus lane, OP, then I'm not really sure that you should be driving at all. Sorry.

@DontDrinkDontSmokeWhatDoIDo

Really sorry for you OP, those amounts are really gutting.

Out of interest from other posters - I didn't get a charge because i don't think there were cameras, but last month i ended up being just still in the box junction because a car cut me up and pulled in front of me.

Would I still have been charged?

Probably but you’d stand a fair chance of appealing it if there was CCTV showing the exit was clear when you entered the box junction.

Would I still have been charged?

Not successfully, because the offence is entering the box when your exit is not clear (rather than being in the box as such).

Waltham Forest would still send you a fine though, and probably reject your appeal.

You live and learn, OP.

I once got a fine and penalty points for turning left at a junction that was right-turn or straight ahead only for anything other than commercial vehicles. In my defense, it really was very badly signposted, and there was a filter on the traffic lights so it really did look like you could go left when you had a green arrow.

I was one of a number of cars who went left at that junction (I was literally stopped behind a row of cars with their left indicators on). Unfortunately, I was the only one that had an unmarked police car behind me

I can assure you that I’ve never made the same mistake again and am much more aware of the need to proactively look for signage.

You might be able to appeal the bus lane charge if it was not properly marked. Box junction is what it is unfortunately.
The charges are steep, but you can't take your eyes off the ball when you're driving.

I'd take it to an online forum that is directed towards appealing these kind of offences.
forums.pepipoo.com/
If you are quite new to driving, or are in an unfamiliar part of town then its easy to make a momentary mistake. The fine is totally over the top.
You won't get much support here, they're all too busy wetting their knickers at the prospect of showing how perfect they are.

How is it hard to wait until you can clearly exit the box? Or to not drive in a bus lane.

There is a bus lane I sometimes pass in the right hand lane immediate off a roundabout:
www.google.com/maps/@53.4115372,-2.1635065,3a,75y,28.71h,72.35t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1sTWTewfSiJT453Z-34QV6Tw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i40

If you happen to be behind a bus and do not know the area, you're done for. There is NO prior warning of it either.

[quote libertybonds]@yourestandingonmyneck obviously not! But frankly it seems difficult to avoid getting a PNC given how minor these offences are. What other terrible things might I accidentally do?[/quote]
Two pounds fifty well spent, from all good retailers.
Memorising it all is part of the driving test.

I really don't think that you should be driving.

Oh please this is too much.
London drivers get tested and charged to a much higher standard than other cities, and I know a few companies that have stopped driving in London Boroughs because of the over surveilence and overcharging of fines.