To consider Cry It Out?

[Schrutesbeets]

DS is 9 months, has been BF and bed shared since birth, till arohnd 6 weeks ago. he sleeps in his cot for naps but won't at night. Have tried gentle methods, nothing is working and he wakes constantly through the night and wakes DD(3)too.
I was always very opposed to CIO, but I'm going back to work soon and cannot function on as little sleep as I'm having. I am run down, irritable and getting regular headaches as a result. We cannot afford a sleep consultant and now I feel CIO may be the only solution!
Any advice / experience of CIO much appreciated.

'Even if he wakes up now and doesn't go back to sleep I feel we've made way more progress than I could ever have imagined. '

Well done op. Teaching our dc to sleep is as important as teaching thrm how to eat or how to use the toilet. Some do these things easily (our older dc did) some don't. Our youngest dc used fo wake up constantly until they were 1, so we had to do a couple of nights of patting sshing, but ultimately leading them and on the 3rd night they just slept through!

Night time waking becomes a habit and is so unhealthy for both dc and the rest of the family so, accepting some crying (whilst comforting but not picking up/taking into bed with you) is vital to break the habit. It is sleep training. All the hyperbole on this thread about leaving them until they vomit or pass out is ridiculous.

No, no, no never. That's heartbreaking.

Sounds like you need to night-wean, OP. You're suggesting taking a baby whose comforts are proximity to you and breastfeeding, removing all of that and shutting him in a dark room by himself and teaching him you won't be responding to his distress.

That's cold, however you slice it. Remove one comfort at a time, he's still a little baby.

'poor quality sleep has a huge impact and often gets worse if not tackled - in my experience poor sleep has a much bigger risk long term on healthy mental and physical development than a couple of nights of crying'

Exactly. No one wants to leave a baby crying but once they are past the new born stage and don't need middle of the night feeds it becomes a habit that needs breaking. Gently. I'm not suggesting leaving for hours but as you've found for longer periods of time does actually work and good sleep is better for their health and wellbeing (and yours!).

Far easier to fuss on with them all night. Takes strength and resilience to actually help your dc sleep.

Far easier to fuss on with them all night. Takes strength and resilience to actually help your dc sleep.

IIRC, studies have shown that sleep-trained babies don't actually get any more sleep. They just don't alert their parents when they wake.

Third elephant- we all go through cycles of sleep which are heavy and light - a baby that's waking up and crying and needing an adult to help them get back to sleep with feeding or rocking etc is having a much more disrupted nights sleep than a baby that briefly stirs and then self settles- as we pretty much all do !!

@ThirdElephant I would be interested to see those studies and the sample size etc. I did gentle sleep training with her, she is 18 months and has been going to bed at 7, self settling for roughly 6 months. I watch her on the monitor fall to sleep in less than 2 minutes pretty much every night. If I go to bed at midnight I can watch her solidly sleeping from 7-12 and then she very loudly alerts us at 6/7am when she wakes up. So yeah, I don't believe she gets less sleep when she was crying an insisting on feeding to get back to sleep every 2 hours and sometimes taking an hour to fall to sleep. Also if she is unwell, she very loudly lets us know she isn't asleep and can't settle herself. Maybe it's just her, but I doubt it.

Just saying 'studies' is not the same as actual evidence.

'They just don't alert their parents when they wake.'

That's kind of the point. As a pp said, everyone has cycles and wakes then goes off to sleep again. Dc need to learn to self soothe and as parent it is our job to help them do that. Rocking, feeding and constantly faffing on with them perpetuates the problem.

Our youngest dc would still cry for us if there was a problem, if they felt ill or whatever but not just because they'd woken and didn't know how to get back to sleep without parental enforced rituals.

Yes in terms of attachment if they learn that you don't come when they cry, they stop trying to tell you when they wake up. This kind of parenting, done consistently not as a one off on a bad day, leads to insecure avoidant attachment and a host of emotional difficulties and relationship struggles in adulthood.

We've been pushed to the absolute limit 2 hourly waking minimum for 16 months. Right now l am trying three minutes out, like the op, then in till he's comforted then out 3 minutes etc. It's not working please help.
Fyi I already co sleep, cuddle him every time he cries so you can't say I have not given it a good go. 16 months of sleep no longer than an hour by the time I have drifted off. It's not right. All my NCT group babies slept through from six months. I'm fucking tired.

Too late now I know but always best to put them in cot from day 1. In same room as you at first. Then move into their own room when they drop night feed. You can check them on the monitor. I never took babies into our bed except to feed the quick nappy change and back in cot often all done in the dark as lights on just wakes them up too much.

You can introduce controlled crying but it will be hard for you to bear if they cry a lot. It has to be done at some time though to get them into their cot so probably easier sooner rather than later. Just keep a careful eye on the monitor. Don't give in though it just drags it all out for much much longer. Some parents keep giving in as they can't stand to hear their baby crying so much, but it just makes it harder for baby as getting mixed messages. After 5-7 days baby should have learned to sleep in cot. I put all of my children in cot to sleep everyday for proper nap after lunch unless we were out and then they had to nap in pram. I know fashions change but all of my children were no trouble at all for sleeping because they got into routine early so knew no other way. My children all grown up now but my dd has used this routine with her children and been successful and she has friends who started cuddling baby to sleep and then struggled to get them to sleep in cot later.

Yes in terms of attachment if they learn that you don't come when they cry, they stop trying to tell you when they wake up. This kind of parenting, done consistently not as a one off on a bad day, leads to insecure avoidant attachment and a host of emotional difficulties and relationship struggles in adulthood.

Sleep training doesn't cause avoidant attachment. Sleep trained babies still cry for their parents and are soothed by their presence. Avoidant/insecure attachment comes from an unstable/inconsistent parenting figure that results in longterm fear and uncertainty in the child and has obvious symptoms, like not seeking help from the parent or going to the parent for comfort but then shying away. If this was happening to sleep trained babies it would be well known.

The scaremongering is ridiculous and inaccurate.

As someone that previously felt a lot of what some of you are saying (that is just simply "bad" to sleep train), I can tell you that there is no way my son has learnt that I don't respond to him being left for 3 minutes on his own. No way.
Since Saturday night, the longest he has been upset was for 3 minutes, and the most I've gone in is 3 times so that's only 3 x 3mins of crying (not screaming or bawling). And I greet him with cuddles and kisses then just put him down again.
Thankfully he has just rolled over and gone to sleep after that.
I've just put him down for his nap, he got upset when I initially left the room, so I started the 3 minute timer and before it had even been 60 seconds he'd rolled over and gone to sleep.
I can categorically say there has not been any trauma caused, I am rested and over the moon, so I'm way more engaged and patient with both children in the day.
I'm not saying leaving a child sobbing for hours on end would be the same, but what I've done has been incredibly gentle, and moreover ITS WORKED.
I couldn't be happier and less worried about the outcome.
Thabsk again for all the support from all.

'I'm not saying leaving a child sobbing for hours on end would be the same, but what I've done has been incredibly gentle, and moreover ITS WORKED'

Well done op. It is hard but it needs doing. Honestly people that think tending to their toddler every hour overnight is normal or healthy are deluded. They need to sleep, we need to sleep.

Well done OP, you've handled this thread and some of the relies with grace.

So pleased you have found a method that works for you and DS

We did similar with mine at 7 months and used the same method. Overnight he went from being a tired, irritable baby as he was constantly waking, to a happy, content boy.

Can you maybe start by reducing the reliance on nipple in mouth to sleep, without going full hog to CIO?

I would start by rocking and patting etc but not offering the breast constantly (you might need to involve your DH). He will cry if he is very in the habit of sucking, but you could use a dummy if you wanted and the point is you will be there to comfort him. Once you break the association of wanting to bf constantly to sleep, you will find it's a much smaller leap to get them sleeping longer chunks without input from you.

Btw op, re sleep training generally, I and most of my friends and relations were sleep trained as children, and not in the "gentle" way either. I'm from a happy home with loving parents, and I have a great relationship with them and no issues at all with attachment/relationship forming. I have no mental healthy or anxiety issues at all and sleep well.

Last night (night 3) update...

Bath, books, feed, and song with DS/DD.

Took DS into his room, kisses, cuddles, little song.

Put in cot awake, left the room... NOTHING! Not one. Single. Peep. I even went and sat in my bedroom, fully expecting to have to go in at least once.

He's still asleep now.

I CANNOT BELIEVE IT!!!!!!

Brilliant news op! it'll be encouragement to those traipsing across the landing every hour to a toddler (like we used to do!).

Parents need to bite the bullet knowing breaking the crying habit is vital for everyone's health and well being.

@JaniieJones

Brilliant news op! it'll be encouragement to those traipsing across the landing every hour to a toddler (like we used to do!).

Parents need to bite the bullet knowing breaking the crying habit is vital for everyone's health and well being.

Thank you! I really never ever believed that it would work - like some of the other posters, I really thought sleep training would be cruel, weeks of screaming, and then sleep by submission. The longest he has been even slightly upset for, is 3 minutes. THREE MINUTES. And I have just had a full night's sleep for the first time in 10 months. And all it took was 3 minutes. I wish I'd known this with DD who was a terrible sleeper for years. I'm amazed!

Congratulations! You must feel on top of the world right now!

Ah I’m so pleased for you OP! It’s such an improvement! Me and DP started being so much nicer to each other with more sleep under our belts!

It’s good for some, not others.

I would suggest you google the negative effects before you decide if it’s for you, though, go into it with all the facts.

Sorry I didn’t read the full thread, really pleased it was what you wanted and worked for your family.

Literally no evidence to suggest that this causes harm to children. I used CIO with both my girls and it wasn't hard for anyone concerned. I believe the reason why it was soo seemless for us was because we didn't do co-sleeping, after a feed both girls would fall asleep and were put straight into their moses basket right from an early age. If you set the tone with your children early there is no stress for either party. Ultimately you should know the difference between baby cries, I'm hungry to I'm in pain to I want some attention and you react accordingly. There are parents out there that will do everything with their baby including sleep and then wonder why baby is under soo much stress when you try and change that routine when they have to go back to work, so yes it's cruel to let your child cry it out because now they cannot understand why things are different from before. Start the process right from day one, we all love our children and would love to hold them all day but IMO this is a selfish act that sets up your child for heartache going forward. When babies are born they are a 'blank canvas' and will look to their parents to soak up as much as they can, are children born clingy? I don't think so I believe this is a learnt behaviour. My eldest daughter whose now 10 never had a dummy growing up and never longed for one, she would see other children with dummies but still never longed for one and the reason being is because we never introduced that into her life, so ultimately she never went through a painful weaning process and us as parents didn't have to suffer through that either. Children are conditioned to what you have introduced them to at the end of the day, so when we're all loving the baby and passing it round like a joint at summer camp ask yourselves is this what the baby needs or is it for your own selfish wants? Babies are born and they eventually grow to live in the big wide world where they will need to be
independent and make decisions without their mum or dad so why do we insist on doing things that are going to have the opposite effect of that and then stress and worry about why your child is soo needy and clingy all the time. There's more to caring for a baby than the immediate we have to look at the bigger picture and do what's best for our children in the long run. Just so people know I do hug and love my children so they know they are loved, my youngest daughter is starting to say words now and I love you is very much a part of her vocabulary but she isn't needy and will go to bed without much fuss at all. Which proves to me that I don't need my child to be hanging on my hip all day long for her to know that she is loved and cared for and she certainly doesn't need to sleep with me and mum either.

For me it's quite simple if you allow a dog to climb on the sofa on a regular basis and then one day don't allow it how do you think it's going to pan out? Again, set the tone early don't make your baby suffer because you feel that's what your baby wants or more to the point because it's what you want, you are setting them up to fail and that is what is cruel.

My post is not directly aimed at the person who created this thread. It's more aimed at the judgemental people that are pointing the finger at others claiming they are bad parents for allowing their child to cry it out. Ultimately everyone does what they feel is best for their kids and that doesn't mean to say that will be right from one family to the next. One hat does not fit all. Sometimes putting yourself first is putting your chuld first and sleep is probably the most important factor in that scenario. It's being cruel to be kind but as I said in my previous post, help your child and yourself right from the start and don't allow it to progress to this in the first place.