To consider Cry It Out?

[Schrutesbeets]

DS is 9 months, has been BF and bed shared since birth, till arohnd 6 weeks ago. he sleeps in his cot for naps but won't at night. Have tried gentle methods, nothing is working and he wakes constantly through the night and wakes DD(3)too.
I was always very opposed to CIO, but I'm going back to work soon and cannot function on as little sleep as I'm having. I am run down, irritable and getting regular headaches as a result. We cannot afford a sleep consultant and now I feel CIO may be the only solution!
Any advice / experience of CIO much appreciated.

Pinchoftums
This is it. So I used to be very much against it and think it would cause harm. But I really feel I'm not much of a parent at all to either child at the moment and I really think that will do more harm, as it's become a chronic issue, and I actually know I'm not very pleasant to be around at the moment.
I know that DS will cry because it's his only way of communicating that he'd rather have my boob, but I genuinely don't think he'd be scared or actually distressed. He knows the bedroom and cot, he would just rather be latched on.
I'm still unsure though, as it's hard to undo something I've believed for so long (that it's cruel), but I am starting to look at it more considerately. I know something just HAS to change.
MonkeyPuddle
Going off your message, does this mean you went in every 5 minutes? Did you pick up? Feed? Talk? Just be present? Thanks!

@0None0

I was always in favour of leaving babies to cry, and did this with all mine. It didn’t do any harm, and made life easier in the short term, but looking back now, I think it was unkind and I wish I hadn’t done it

Can I ask what changed your way of thinking? Was it based on your experience? That of others? Something you read? Thanks for the message

@steakandcheeseplease

There is quite a lot of material available on line why CIO isn't good ide and the effects it can have on their brain . As an adult would you like to cry your self to sleep? I'd imagine at some point they get a sore throat when their crying pitch intensifies to get your attention.

There will be people that come along and say it worked for them, but there are many others it hasn't worked for which leaves them leaving their distressed child screaming its head off for hours for multiple nights only to take them back in to their bed.

Maybe have a look at the sleep whisper or other similar book before you try such a harsh approach.

I think the same. It "works" because they eventually learn no-one is coming when they cry, I couldn't do it. I worry, so I'd also be concerned they were crying because they were unwell or something needing immediate attention and weren't being attended to, although I couldn't listen to them cry out of loneliness anyway.

@Traveller3367

I was in your position 2 months ago 11 month old waking every 20mins CC did not work as seeing us only made baby worse Out of sheer desperation did CIO and worked a great. Put baby in own room. 1st night cried for an hour 2nd night 20 mins Continued to cry for about 5-10mins most nights but it was more whimpers of displeasure. I watch on the baby monitor.

And the change in baby's behaviour in the daytime was so noticeable straight away. Much more settled, calmer and happier. I think the poor baby was sleep deprived too and hence was playing up in the daytime.

2 months on and DH and I would do it alot sooner with next baby we think.
Definitely pro CIO. Go for it!
There's no firm evidence of harm. My background is in healthcare.

An hour of crying 😱, how does any mother leave their baby to cry for ONE HOUR?

I'm still having to bottle feed and settle baby at 16 months. We've tried everything but CIO. Well, DH stayed in the room with him without picking him up one time and it was hell on earth. He didn't cry himself to sleep he just got louder and louder. Gave up after one hour.
I really need to find a solution as he wakes countless times in the night and won't go to sleep my himself. Co sleeping means my sleep is disturbed.

I'm hoping someone has a suggestion for you as I'm desperate for a solution.

@shrutesbeets. I changed my opinion because of training I did as a foster carer, and getting a better understanding of child development. Babies are evolved to demand constant adult presence, for protection. They don’t understand why you aren’t with them offering protection. They don’t know it’s safe, for all they know , they could be minutes from death by hyena. They have no understanding of what sleep is, or what it is you want them to do. And they don’t know when they’ve done it either.

I think understanding a bit more about what the experience is possibly like for them, fear, abandonment and confusion, that’s why I wouldn’t do it again

An hour of crying 😱, how does any mother leave their baby to cry for ONE HOUR?

Probably because they feel they have no other choice. As I say, I'd never have considered it before, but it's gotten to the point that I'm on the verge of a breakdown.
As I say, BIL paid for a sleep consultant and did the gradual retreat method, which has DN crying for 2 HOURS! And that is meant to be a gentle approach. I think it's almost more cruel to be in the room but not picking them up, that must be so confusing.

@AnneLovesGilbert

What will you tell your 3 year old when you leave your baby, her sibling, to cry until he potentially vomits, goes purple and then passes out once he realises no one’s coming?

You wouldn’t let her cry herself to sleep and ignore her, why would you do it to him?

He’s still so little. He’s not waking to annoy you. He’s doing what babies do and he’s used to you responding to his needs, during the day and at night.

Letting him cry till he gives up isn’t a good message to him or your DD that you’re there for them when they need you. He can’t tell you how he feels except for to cry.

3 months is a long time in infant development, 2 months is as well. You’ve got time to see if he starts doing longer stretches. You can carry on cosleeping once he’s awake, at least you’ll be resting and dozing with him. You can practise with different types of dummies to see if that helps settle him without a boob. You can look into ways to get him settle without a nipple or a dummy.

I know you’re exhausted, most of us have been there. But you’ve parented in a way that’s in tune with him so far, meeting his needs, you don’t have to switch from that approach to literally leaving him to scream himself asleep in desperation and exhaustion.

You wouldn’t let your husband sob himself to sleep without trying to comfort him. Or your daughter. You wouldn’t leave an elderly relative sobbing in distress at night and not go up them even if it was exhausting doing what they need from you.

It’s only ever non verbal babies people justify leaving to cry themselves to sleep and they literally have no option as they can’t comfort themselves or express themselves in any other way.

Please look at other gentler options.

I definitely agree with this. I coslept with all mine until they slept through, about 3 years old. I could never ever leave a baby to cry. They didn't ask to be born. Just hold them and sleep close to them.

[quote 0None0]@shrutesbeets. I changed my opinion because of training I did as a foster carer, and getting a better understanding of child development. Babies are evolved to demand constant adult presence, for protection. They don’t understand why you aren’t with them offering protection. They don’t know it’s safe, for all they know , they could be minutes from death by hyena. They have no understanding of what sleep is, or what it is you want them to do. And they don’t know when they’ve done it either.

I think understanding a bit more about what the experience is possibly like for them, fear, abandonment and confusion, that’s why I wouldn’t do it again[/quote]
Hi None, thanks so much for that information. Based on your training and experience is there another method you'd recommend? Willing to try anything at the moment!

I definitely agree with this.
I coslept with all mine until they slept through, about 3 years old. I could never ever leave a baby to cry. They didn't ask to be born. Just hold them and sleep close to them.

I'm really glad you were able to do this and it worked for you.
I Co slept with my daughter and she was a bad sleeper (woke every 60-90mins), but I battled through and somehow coped.
My son wakes every 20-30 and even in between is either actively suckling, or restless. This time round I actually can't cope.
I wish Co sleeping was the answer but sadly it isn't. I'm getting probably 2-3hrs of sleep a night and thats not in one go, it's broken. I'm returning to work and studying at level 7 when I do, in September. So the way things are going I can't simply just Co sleep my way through it.
Thanks for the suggestion though, I really appreciate everyone's input.

@Schrutesbeets yeah exactly that, i fed her (breastfed) popped her in the cot drowsy, she would cry, 5 mins later I went in to calm her, so stroke her, pat her bum, give her a cuddle, if she was upset upset I would latch her on for a comfort suck and then pop her down again.
First night took 1.5 hours, 2nd was 20 mins, 3rd was 10 mins. Now I pop her in the cot after a feed and she rolls over and falls to sleep by herself.
I made sure she wasn’t unwell or brewing a cold, teething etc and went for it. I also explained to my older child, 3.5 at the time, that his sister was going to be a bit crying that night but mummy was there to give her lots of cuddles. He frankly didn’t care as most 3 year olds don’t.
We did the Ferber method.

I know CIO isn’t popular here, but it will work. I did sleep training (CC) when my babies were 6 months because I was going back to work and needed at least a few hours sleep in my job. My DCs are adults now and they are all perfectly healthy, happy people who have not been damaged by sleep training.

For a baby who likes to latch all night, have you tried the "Pantley pull off" where you gently hold a finger under their chin when they unlatch. Basically repeat until they don't wake on unlatching. There is more detail of the method in Elizabeth Pantley's book.

Also agree with PPs who suggest outsourcing bedtimes to the parent without boobs, if your little one wants to feed to sleep. They can be more accepting of change when it is the other parent running the show. Appreciate your DH needs to sleep, however as a first stage perhaps he could do bedtime and deal with wakes until (say) 11pm whilst you get an uninterrupted block of sleep. You then feed to sleep overnight and then maybe hand over again to DH at 6am for another block of sleep before work?

Bedtime tends to be a good time to make changes to how they fall asleep: this is because sleep pressure will have built by bedtime, and there will be melatonin in their system too, creating a biological drive to sleep.

Your DH could cuddle to sleep similarly to what you do but without the boob, as a first step.

By the way all of the above is said without judgement around CC/CIO but in case you wanted to explore an alternative.

I wish Co sleeping was the answer but sadly it isn't. I'm getting probably 2-3hrs of sleep a night and thats not in one go, it's broken.

Just wanted to say op, you are not alone in that. One of the worst parts of no sleep is all your NCT friends etc going on about how great it is now baby sleeps through and you just need to try xyz.

If you're breastfeeding to sleep though can dad take over for a few wake-ups? That did work for a friend of mine.

My other friend follows wake windows very strictly. That didn't work for us either but maybe it might for you?

We're bottle and it doesn't seem to make much difference who gets him. He's very reliant on it and I don't know how to break it. I'm very interested to see if you get any practical advice.

@Crowsaregreat

Gawd, CIO always brings out the martyrs and pearl clutchers. We did gradual withdrawal method on dc2 at 13mo, dc2 at 9mo. Took about three nights and they slept through. Better for them and better for us.

People who go on about how you're traumatising your baby never consider whether it could be traumatising for a baby to spend daytimes with a mother of the brink of breaking down from exhaustion and resentment. A few nights and they learn how to get themselves back to sleep and associate their cot with sleep rather than thinking they need to be held to sleep. That's it.

Totally different methods.

MonkeyPuddle
Cheers, that sounds like a good method and I will probably give that a go before trying anything else.
Just a quick question - would you give it 5 mins of continual crying, or total?
So for example - if she cried for 2 minutes then stopped for a minute then started crying again, would you start the 5 minute timer from when she first cried or when she started crying again? If that makes sense.

If she was still crying at the 5 min point I went in, if she was just grumbling but not crying then I didn’t go in. On the second night I only went in once or twice because she stopped crying and just grumbled before dropping off

We had to retrain my ds to sleep at 14 months. He slept through the night pretty much from day 1 (I had to force him to wake up for night feeds in the early months) but went through a period of regression at 13 months and would not sleep anywhere apart from my bed with me and dp. After a month of me basically not sleeping I cracked and put him in his own bed.

When he woke up on the first night, I let him cry for 5 minutes then popped my head around the door, said I was here, I loved him hut it was time for bed. I closed the door and set timer for 10 minutes. He screamed bloody murder for about 3 more minutes then went to sleep. Woke again at 4, I set timer for 5 minutes but he was asleep again within 2.

Since that one night, he hasn't cried on waking since. It was horrible listening to him cry but so worth it. I wouldn't just leave him all night but I think being out of the room and popping my head in now and then really helped.

Thanks TheSlayer, I totally know its very common for parents to be getting as little sleep as I am. And if I was returning to my last job, I would manage it much better, as I know the people, the role, and it wasn't too taxing. But as I'll be starting a brand new role plus returning to studying, something has to change. Also much harder with a high energy 3 year old this time round too.
Thanks for the suggestions and I'll definitely look into them.

@Schrutesbeets

It's funny though isn't it... B&SIL used a sleep consultant who advised chair in the room/whispering/patting to soothe, gradually moving chair further away etc. BIL said the first 2 nights DN spent 2 hrs crying himself to sleep (albeit with some patting and shushing to soothe). Then I've got a friend who just went CIO straight off the bat, who says it took only 1 night of her DD crying for 45mins. So when you compare those 2 scenarios, the former seems more "cruel" if crying is what we're going off. But most people would think it was the gentler method?

I don't think how long they are crying for is wholly what people are going off when they compare the two methods, though. There is a difference between a baby stopping crying because they realise their parent isn't coming back, and a baby crying to a parent who is right there, holding or otherwise supporting them. Many people would say two hours of the latter is less cruel than 45 minutes of the former.

FWIW we used a sleep consultant who advised the same sorts of things as your in-laws. We got to a point where we could sit by our DS's cot as he put himself to sleep (normally took 30 mins +/-) and he would then sleep through for about 10 hours. This was when he was 11 months.

He did this with more or less consistency depending on teething/outside noise/illness etc for a while until I stopped BFing when he was 16 months. I didn't really expect stopping breastfeeding to mean better sleep as I was only doing a couple of feeds a day anyway, but it did coincide with things improving again.

Now at 18 months he is a sold 8pm to 7am kind of toddler, with a 2 1/2 hour afternoon nap every day. And he was an absolutely terrible sleeper until 11 months - at 6 to 8 months he would wake up 8+ times a night and I was on my knees.

hope I haven't jinxed it by posting publicly about his sleep improving

Having a bad sleeper is so tough. My daughter used to wake every two hours at least and she'd need to feed to go back to sleep. Not as bad as your little one but still exhausting and not sustainable.

I didn't stop co-sleeping but I did stop feeding to sleep in the middle of the night. I'll feed her to sleep but then if she wakes she doesn't get fed but I do lie in bed with her (on the sofa bed in her room). It was hard for the first few nights as she cried a lot and obviously really wanted feeding but it's improved her sleep enormously. We're having a set back at the moment because of teething but two quick wake ups last night was the worst night for ages which is nothing compared to how she used to be.

I would say though that it's not a quick process and it did take a few months before she was regularly staying in her own bed all night. Looking back we started night weaning early March and she started reliably sleeping through end of May. And as I said we're having a set back at the moment because of teething. I think night weaning is worth trying though, putting a stop to that will get you better sleep even if he doesn't sleep through yet.

I think night weaning is worth trying though, putting a stop to that will get you better sleep even if he doesn't sleep through yet.

Hugely agree with this

Seems like a huge leap to go from co-sleeping and breast feeding to sleep to full on CIO. LIke a complete reversal of all the parenting methods you've used so far.

I agree with PPs who've said to try a more gradual approach first. Also the underlying problem is the feeding to sleep rather than where your baby is actually sleeping.

there is still time for things to to change before september. Dropping a nap for a start.

@N4ish

Seems like a huge leap to go from co-sleeping and breast feeding to sleep to full on CIO. LIke a complete reversal of all the parenting methods you've used so far.

I agree with PPs who've said to try a more gradual approach first. Also the underlying problem is the feeding to sleep rather than where your baby is actually sleeping.

Absolutely, you're right. It is extreme, but I think this morning I just hit breaking point. In reality, I'm going to try some gentler methods first - a PP has offered to send me a book on thr Ferber method, which I plan to start next weekend when I come back from a getaway. I will give other options a good go, but I think I was just wanting to hear opinions / experiences on CIO, more as an 'if-all-else-fails' back up. Hopefully it won't actually get to that point!