To consider Cry It Out?

[Schrutesbeets]

DS is 9 months, has been BF and bed shared since birth, till arohnd 6 weeks ago. he sleeps in his cot for naps but won't at night. Have tried gentle methods, nothing is working and he wakes constantly through the night and wakes DD(3)too.
I was always very opposed to CIO, but I'm going back to work soon and cannot function on as little sleep as I'm having. I am run down, irritable and getting regular headaches as a result. We cannot afford a sleep consultant and now I feel CIO may be the only solution!
Any advice / experience of CIO much appreciated.

I did it with my second. He was 16 months. It worked. I dont regret it. It worked. Took 3 nights. I think I literally changed overnight on the 4th night when he slept. It worked out well for us. (He's 9 now. No sleep issues) Just monitor it. If you cant do it then dont. Good luck!

I'm a giraffe with a degree in astro physics and a strong penchant for Tia Maria over ice. I'd like to ask Dr Cahms how they know that virtually all the children they see in clinic have been sleep trained. Is it a standard question on a form? What other questions do you ask?

Absolute hero

In my very healthy and well adjusted person clinic almost everyone has been sleep trained. 🙄

I'm sure there are absolutely no other factors that have lead to those children being in a CAMHS clinic. None at all. Just the sleep training.
(I work in CAMHS and I call bullshit!!!!)

@DrCAMHS

As other posters have said - not to question your credentials as such, but - how can you attribute the reason for their mental health concerns, down to sleep training?
Sleep training was so commonly used and advised by HVs and GPs, that surely statistically the chance of many of your service users having been sleep trained is fairly high. Does correlation prove causation?

And aside from the correlation, which only serves to make parents feel guilty, what advice do you give then to parents who are seriously suffering with THEIR mental health due to lack of sleep and chronic exhaustion?
What information have you got regarding the wellbeing of children raised by overworked, overstretched, and overtired parents? And how do you suggest solving that?
Thanks.

[quote Schrutesbeets]@DrCAMHS

As other posters have said - not to question your credentials as such, but - how can you attribute the reason for their mental health concerns, down to sleep training?
Sleep training was so commonly used and advised by HVs and GPs, that surely statistically the chance of many of your service users having been sleep trained is fairly high. Does correlation prove causation?

And aside from the correlation, which only serves to make parents feel guilty, what advice do you give then to parents who are seriously suffering with THEIR mental health due to lack of sleep and chronic exhaustion?
What information have you got regarding the wellbeing of children raised by overworked, overstretched, and overtired parents? And how do you suggest solving that?
Thanks.[/quote]
Lol brilliant reply.

@Chiwi

In my very healthy and well adjusted person clinic almost everyone has been sleep trained. 🙄

I'm sure there are absolutely no other factors that have lead to those children being in a CAMHS clinic. None at all. Just the sleep training.
(I work in CAMHS and I call bullshit!!!!)

Indeed

Can we see your clinical audit around prior sleep training and dysfunction? That’s really not where any W points, as you’d know.

...any evidence.

Can you please let me know if any of these suggestions work for you op? Like you we're desperate for a solution.

@DrCAMHS

This is such bollocks. I can tell you that I was never sleep trained. My own mother coslept and fed on demand until I self weaned. My relationship with her is so-so. For a while in my teens we were stuck in unhappy codependency, now we both try but really we just don't gel with one another. Attachment parenting didn't make her more able to make good decisions around me being bullied, or to refrain from comments in my teens that helped to contribute to my ED. In fact, I think she used attachment parenting because she saw me as an extension of her and then struggled to let go of it when it became healthy to do so. She did sleep train my DSIs in the end and she is much better adjusted. If you look at the home videos at that time, she is sometimes not very engaged with us - perhaps the effects of major sleep deprivation. But enough psychobabble.

All the evidence suggests there is no actual evidence it is damaging.

@mn2022 ok boomer

Also I'll add DC' dad was attachment parented, had sleep and social issues until age 12 and has a close but complicated/enmeshed relationship with parents.

Our DC was sleep trained and is very well adjusted, happy to sleep at family members' houses, happy to go with the flow, no problems going off to school or meeting new people etc.

I think sleep training done right can actually help your child become stable, happy and independent. And it's much better for kids to have happy, relaxed parents than overstressed parents who are martyring themselves over some unachievable ideal.

Plus it takes a week at most - all kids will have periods of crying/uncertainty like that - a parent gone to hospital? An illness that leaves them uncomfortable and crying for a few nights? An emergency that means they have to stay with relatives? That's life and it's unavoidable and not damaging as long as they're in a stable and loving environment.

[quote Mincingfuckdragon]@mn2022 ok boomer [/quote]
What an intelligent, well thought through debate you provide

@Mincingfuckdragon

And for reference, I'm in my 20's, so you're way off

I just wanted to come on and update for anyone who is still following and who helped with advice etc...
Tonight was the 1st night of DS in his own room and own cot and our preplanned version of Ferber.
We agreed that we would only leave for 3 minutes at a time max.
DS had bath, book and song with DD, a feed and then taken into his room. Had a cuddle and rock then put him down.
He cried, I timed 3 minutes then went in. He was stood up in cot so I picked up and cuddled, once settled put him back down. He cried, I timed 3 minutes then went in. He was lay down but fussing, I put my hand on his chest and shushed, and he turned his head to the side and went to sleep.
I was genuinely shocked he went to sleep without my boob so easily as he never has.

Half an hour later, he cried. Times 3 mins, went in, settled. Cried for 3 mins, went in settled.

He has now been asleep for 3 hours without a sound - this is the longest he's ever slept alone and the 1st night he's not been in my bed. I'm astounded!
Even if he wakes up now and doesn't go back to sleep I feel we've made way more progress than I could ever have imagined. And although 3 minutes feels a long time when you're watching the timer count down, I don't feel it was at all harmful.

Honestly I'm gobsmacked.

Thanks all for the advice and sharing of experiences.

Thanks for the update. That's a brilliant result. I hope we can do the same. Xx

A book called the sleep solution by Lucy Wolfe worked for me and two other friends I recommended it to. It’s the sleep association between nursing and falling asleep/getting back to sleep you need to break.

YES! I’m so glad you’ve all got a bit of sleep!

Last night's update -
DS went to sleep at 0730, after 2 x 3min check ins.
Checked in at 11pm and 6am!
I did hear him wake a few times in between, but each time settled within the 3 min timer so didn't need to go in.
Honestly cannot tell you how amazed I am at this progress!!!
@MonkeyPuddle - thanks so much for all the support!

I know it's really hard and you're desperate for sleep. But I personally wouldn't recommend it.
There's a book by Margot Sunderland where she explains what happens when you leave the baby to cry.
Basically (I've cut and paste this)

"A study that measured the stress hormone cortisol found that while the babies were crying, the level of cortisol was high (and it has been suggested at a high enough level to be toxic to the developing brain). When the babies stopped crying, the level of cortisol was measured again. The levels of cortisol were as high as when the babies were crying. They had just stopped vocalising their distress."

Some people think that when the baby has stopped crying, the problem is solved and the baby is ok, but in reality they're still distressed, they just don't bother crying because they're not expecting anyone to come for them.

Could you try getting one of those side cots so they're next to you? There's also a book called the gentle sleep book by Sarah ockwell that could be helpful?

Apologies I didn't see the update as it isn't showing up on green (for OP post) for some reason.

Glad you've found a way that works and you're finally getting some sleep.

Nope wouldn't do it. I was once told they only stop crying because they come to the conclusion that noone is coming for them (which I guess is correct). Can't get that thought from my mind tbh, I wouldn't want my child thinking that. Sleep deprivation is the pits, but I would think a gentler method is more preferable

If you have close neighbours, don't.
We are at OUR wits end with a neighbour. To be honest we were questioning whether they'd buggered off and left her, it goes on so long.
I'm being woken up at 2.30 every night and it's not on.

Great news op
Definitely keep going
I did cc with all my three who were real 'Velcro' babies but like you I was on my knees with exhaustion and nights were getting worse not better
It's my belief that sleep needs to be taught or helped with
I work with children (camhs now but school nursing before) and poor quality sleep has a huge impact and often gets worse if not tackled - in my experience poor sleep has a much bigger risk long term on healthy mental and physical development than a couple of nights of crying
Also those saying would you leave an older child to cry? 100% yes- I've had many times when I've had a clearly exhausted and beside themselves toddler who clearly needs to sleep and after a big cuddle and reassurance I've tucked them in and said it's time to go to sleep . But to be honest since cc it was only very occasionally we would have any issues at bedtime only if a big change in routine