To consider Cry It Out?

[Schrutesbeets]

DS is 9 months, has been BF and bed shared since birth, till arohnd 6 weeks ago. he sleeps in his cot for naps but won't at night. Have tried gentle methods, nothing is working and he wakes constantly through the night and wakes DD(3)too.
I was always very opposed to CIO, but I'm going back to work soon and cannot function on as little sleep as I'm having. I am run down, irritable and getting regular headaches as a result. We cannot afford a sleep consultant and now I feel CIO may be the only solution!
Any advice / experience of CIO much appreciated.

And the rude judgy people on this thread should shoosh. You get to parent your children as you please. You don't get to make sweeping assumptions/determinations about other people's methods.

I had similar at 10/11 ish months. I was completely broken, due to return to work and panicking about how I would string a sentence together let alone do my job productively.

I paid for a webinar (£25 or so) that was a gentle transition to breastfeeding to sleep guide. It helped me nightwean and that did improve sleep and made the CC I eventually did at a year old easier and more successful. Took maybe 2 nights and cried for no longer than 8 minutes. Actually being in the room with her and her not being fed was far more distressing to her as she is all about the boob!
Can give you details for the webinar if you like, it was helpful but not life changing but for £25 I didn't expect more.

My DD is now 18 months and a great sleeper has been since 12 months, happy little creature and we still have a lovely bond. She still comes to me for comfort and affection.

Sleep deprivation is horrific and ultimately you have to do what you can to survive. Some people can handle the limited sleep, some cannot and I am firmly in the cannot camp!

I did cry it out for my Dd when she was 6m old. I was desperate. Controlled crying where I checked in on her was winding her up worse. The first night she cried for 1hr 20m which sounds bloody awful doesn't it. But it was not hysterically screaming, it really sounded like she was winding down, there were long pauses. The second night took 20m. The third night she slept through. Now in hindsight I feel really odd about this, I do feel guilty because I think she was too young. However even now I still don't know what else I could have done. I was determined not to sleep train my next dc, but ended up doing controlled crying with interval checks at 1yo. They have totally different personalities, Dd is much more needy and I do kind of think yes, checking her would have been more cruel for her and only served to make me feel less guilty now.

@dopeyduck

For me, I think refusing to meet your child's need for comfort at any time is unacceptable. By this is mean refusing to meet it, not delaying tending to them because XYZ is happening and you only have one pair of hands.

I think doing it before your child can understand your expectations or why you're doing it or what is happening is cruel.

Obviously everyone parents differently but the fact you feel the need for validation from others says you know it's not ok.

By this, do you include controlled crying? What alternative would you suggest to someone who's struggling to parent in the day, due to the chronic exhaustion from barely sleeping? How do you feel about infants starting nursery? DS is due to start in August and I'm sure there will be many tears. Surely this would be considered as me not meeting his needs for comfort? But most people would accept that parents going back to work is a necessity, and that children will adapt? Why is sleep not seen as equally necessary?

Oh and you asked if anyone had personal experience of being left to cry. My mum left me, my sister and brother to cry, each at 6 weeks old. It was what she was told to do, as a young mum in the early 80s. We were always good sleepers from then on and no issues as children or adults.

However I've had no end of sleep issues with my Dd, I have at times questioned whether cio could have contributed. That's part of my guilt. But in reality I think it's a personality thing. She's complicated. I think I ended up at cio because of her personality and issues around sleep, not the other way round.

"My son wakes every 20-30 and even in between is either actively suckling, or restless."

This isn't right, that's an excessive amount of waking and i think you you should look into if there's any issues.

For DD her breathing isn't right, she breaths through her mouth, we saw a dr and the latest theory is somethings up with her tonsils or adenoids... waiting to see someone about that. At her worst she was waking every 45/60 mins at 2! She's started grinding her teeth and sleeping better but that's not great either.

When I was trying to figure out wtf was going on I found this test through Beyond the Sleep Training Project and it suggested possible issues and I spoke with the Woman behind it (she's a whole lot more qualified than most sleep trainers) who gave me some direction.

evolutionaryparenting.com/test/bitss/

evolutionaryparenting.com/about/

I had a really awful day with ds when he was about four months. We were due to go on holiday but OH was farting about so we were trapped in the house. Ds was desperate for sleep but wouldn’t and was frantic with exhaustion. I was so fraught and upset I ended up putting him in a basket in another room while I calmed down and dried my hair (hadn’t even been able to get ready!) and when I checked on him he’d fallen asleep.

But it wasn’t settled sleep. He was still sobbing crying slightly in his sleep, hiccuping. He just looked so small and defeated somehow. And he woke ten minutes later anyway. So it wouldn’t be for me.

With that being said I do sympathise op and I do wish I had a suggestion for you because mine is unsettled at the moment (teeth) and it’s a nightmare.

One thing I would say is he gets two good chunks of sleep in the day and is in bed at 7. While cutting back the naps help?

This isn't right, that's an excessive amount of waking and i think you you should look into if there's any issues.

Hi olderthanyouthink!
I know it sohnds like there's probably something going on, but it's because he's so used to being latched on, and then when he inevitably falls asleep and I latches, he wakes and it starts again. I will be following the advice of night weaning and then CC using the Ferber Method I think!
Thanks so much for those links, I really appreciate it.

Unlatches *

Lifesaving and marriage saving. I haven’t read all the comments because there will be those saying it’s cruel and damaging- research actually disagrees and shows opposite.

Sleep deprivation is much, much more damaging to everyone. Our life was transformed by sleep training. It’s hard to do, it needs a strong nerve, but only for three or four days usually.

It has long term benefits too.

We did CIO with my first child, at six months. I'd tried Ferber, which just riled him up. It took three nights. On the worst night he cried for 2 hours. Dons shield
He was almost instantly a happier baby. He'd smile when I put him down to bed. And 3 years on he's still a happy, well adjusted toddler with good sleep habits. Google Professor Emily Oster and her thoughts on sleep training - a lot of the "research" was done in extreme conditions like Romanian orphanages or clinical settings where children would obviously be more distressed than in a loving home environment.

@propertealady

We did CIO with my first child, at six months. I'd tried Ferber, which just riled him up. It took three nights. On the worst night he cried for 2 hours. Dons shield He was almost instantly a happier baby. He'd smile when I put him down to bed. And 3 years on he's still a happy, well adjusted toddler with good sleep habits. Google Professor Emily Oster and her thoughts on sleep training - a lot of the "research" was done in extreme conditions like Romanian orphanages or clinical settings where children would obviously be more distressed than in a loving home environment.

Ah that's really interesting, I'll be sure to read up on that. And as I'd thought - I wondered what the other factors in those children's lives were and how they could deduce it was specifically down to being left to cry. Thanks for sending that.

research actually disagrees and shows opposite.

Sorry but what a load of bollocks.

There is an abundance of research both supporting and against CIO, you don't just pick and choose which sort you want to highlight,

I cannot in a million years imagine leaving a baby crying for two hours.

So you are going from nursing to sleep to CIO. I can't imagine a less gentle thing to do. 3 DC under 4 here and it's tough and the modern world certainly doesn't support babies being dependant on mums however I don't think you have tried everything.

Have you looked into night weaning? Reducing time on breast etc. Then there is breaking the feed to sleep association - I did this with DS2 when she was about 10 months in a gentle way and used the time for a different connection.

Also as you suggest, hubby needs to get involved. It's not easy on parents but I works seriously think about the impact and break in trust with your DC with CIO.

@Maggiesfarm

I cannot in a million years imagine leaving a baby crying for two hours.

How wonderful.

Maybe you should work on your empathy skills?

When I was a kid in the 1940s children were commonly left to CIO. We still grew up!

@memberofthewedding

When I was a kid in the 1940s children were commonly left to CIO. We still grew up!

'growing up' is the bare minimum expected.

Please don't act as if simply surviving into adulthood is the best you can do.

I’ve read depending on age, controlled crying can actually distress them even more. This held true for DD around this sort of age, her sleep was awful around 10 months. I was very against any sort of cio but in desperation tried modified Ferber and it was awful and she’d get more distressed from our presence going in and then walking out.

What did work for us was bedding in and hand holding but appreciate that’s not for everyone. I also pumped for night feeds, once at her bed time and then at mine to ensure it wasn’t pure hunger causing the waking.

This worked up until a point and then anything we did distressed her, any sort of contact and hand holding that used to sooth her just made her scream. One time we waited 5 mins to give her chance to settle and she did and slept through ever since. Probably should have given her chance to settle before. But I think they call that method extinction. It’s not what we intentionally used. But I’ve read it tends to work better than Ferber for older babies xx

@mn2022

research actually disagrees and shows opposite.

Sorry but what a load of bollocks.

There is an abundance of research both supporting and against CIO, you don't just pick and choose which sort you want to highlight,

I’m afraid you’re wrong. There is no research that shows long term harm. Unless you can point towards it?

Child clinical psychologist here - please do not sleep train your baby (in any way). A child that young is not neurodevelopmentally ready to ‘self-soothe’ (this comes much later on in a child’s life) and the key to true self-regulation skills (and most importantly, healthy secure attachments) is consistent co-regulation by a safe adult. A child that age is not “greedy” for your attention, they will not “learn” to self-calm or that you will keep coming back. A child that age has no concept of time, or of making sense of their own internal distress. On the contrary, prolonged parental absence and poor attunement at times of distress at this age (including via regular ‘check ins’), leads to a deactivation of natural attachment behaviour - the baby will give up calling for you (they will stop crying), they may even sleep from exhaustion, but their ability feel truly calm will be missing. Blood tests prove this. I rarely come across a child in my clinic now who was not sleep trained.

And in response to the calls for peer reviewed papers on long term impact of CIO/CC - there aren’t any direct ones. Some might consider this a “win” for the pro-camp, but the reality is that an ethics board in today’s society would understandably never give authorisation for such a study to take place, for the simple reason that you would be assessing a potentially harmful practice to a child’s development. What clinicians and researchers in the field use, therefore, is the myriad of peer-reviewed studies in the areas of attachment (including the impact of neglect on the developing infant brain), neuro-physiology, neuro-development and child development to inform our practice and the development of our theoretical understanding in this area.

@DrCAMHS

And in response to the calls for peer reviewed papers on long term impact of CIO/CC - there aren’t any direct ones. Some might consider this a “win” for the pro-camp, but the reality is that an ethics board in today’s society would understandably never give authorisation for such a study to take place, for the simple reason that you would be assessing a potentially harmful practice to a child’s development. What clinicians and researchers in the field use, therefore, is the myriad of peer-reviewed studies in the areas of attachment (including the impact of neglect on the developing infant brain), neuro-physiology, neuro-development and child development to inform our practice and the development of our theoretical understanding in this area.

Completely get what you’re saying and it’s compelling, it’s why we didn’t sleep train BUT what about desperately sleep deprived parents, some of which might inadvertently resort to unsafe sleep practices out of exhaustion and simply just conking out.

What would you recommend instead?

Thanks for your posts, DrCAMHS.

Just to further on from my comment @DrCAMHS, advice such as sleep when baby sleeps or co sleeping sometimes isn’t practical or safe (low birth weight/ prem for instance) and a lot of people don’t have a support network to lean on.

(Just to be clear this isn’t an attack on credentials or advice, i am genuinely curious as when DD was born she never settled unless held due to TT and I was on the verge of a breakdown after living on 2 hrs sleep a day for months )