To move away and leave elderly in-laws behind?

[Summerplans7]

DH’s company has been talking to him about the chance of a transfer abroad. His job is perfectly safe here in the U.K., but the opportunity abroad is a country we have both always wanted to live in (although with Covid restrictions almost impossible to get to at the moment), but it would take us far from his elderly parents.

His mother would be devastated as she is close to our children and has been lonely over the last few years due to Covid, and the health of his his father has declined severely (he has dementia and isn’t really “there” anymore). I feel guilty even considering it. So does DH.

Do you think it would be selfish to go? It would be selfish of course, I know, but these chances only come around once in a lifetime (for us anyway).

All the restrictions have made us crave an adventure more than ever. The country we are considering is also frequently on the top of the list for qualify of life, and places to raise children, making it more tempting. And I have a good friend who lives there, so it wouldn’t be totally alien.

MIL wouldn’t want to come, even if FIL wasn’t unwell, so that’s not an option. She has a lot of friends and a community here and doesn’t intend to ever leave her area. She is actually pushing us to move nearer (we’re not far at the moment), has even suggested we all move in together (not an option for me).

It's been a key reason - and expectation - for most of human civilisation. That expectation would still be there in many many cultures and societies.

@DDIJ

You do not have children for support later in life

Many people do.

That’s ridiculous. Who in their right mind would think “I will now sacrifice my earning potential and increase my outgoings in order to birth and raise some small people who will make me age more quickly and can’t be guaranteed to look after me in my old age”.

If it was just about support in your old age you’d be better off working harder with no responsibilities and saving your money to pay for care!

Having kids is about much, much more than care in your dotage.

It’s not hyperbole, that means something completely different.

I had kids because I wanted kids is no answer at all. I had mine because it was a biological imperative, I spent 18 years parenting and the last five of those years were bloody hard work and just as it paid off they left home!

I’m really proud of mine, he’s an interesting and good person who I enjoy hanging out with. I don’t want him to move to the other side of the world because I’d miss him horribly. So shoot me. Fortunately I think he’d miss me too.

We’ve made every possible preparation to future proof our lives so hopefully we won’t be a burden to our kids in any practical way, that doesn’t mean we won’t want and value their company. And no Zoom and FaceTime don’t cut it, they’re not remotely the same as sharing a bottle of wine at the kitchen table.

There is a big difference between:

Wanting to spend time with your adult DCs, hoping they want to do the same with you, and anticipating that because you have a good relationship, and you've done your best as a parent, that they will help and support you in old age; and

Feeling fully entitled, just because you birthed someone, that they owe you help and support, often more than they want or are able to give, and at sometimes at great sacrifice to themselves and their immediate families. And making no plans to practically support themselves as 'my kids will sort it out'

Unfortunately I think a lot of people experience the latter as their parents age

@forpeeetssake

There is a big difference between:

Wanting to spend time with your adult DCs, hoping they want to do the same with you, and anticipating that because you have a good relationship, and you've done your best as a parent, that they will help and support you in old age; and

Feeling fully entitled, just because you birthed someone, that they owe you help and support, often more than they want or are able to give, and at sometimes at great sacrifice to themselves and their immediate families. And making no plans to practically support themselves as 'my kids will sort it out'

Unfortunately I think a lot of people experience the latter as their parents age

I think there's a lot in what you say there. I know I have a different attitude to my mother than my father. There's a certain level of responsibility I feel I have simply as their child and I"ll A, B and C for both of them to the best of my ability. But I definitely would be more willing do to D, E, F and beyond for my mother because she has been so much more the active loving parent, we have a great relationship on the whole, I'd do some of it even if she was my aunt, neighbour or friend rather than my mother. And predictably enough, my father is the more demanding which makes me push back against his demands.

@forpeeetssake

There is a big difference between:

Wanting to spend time with your adult DCs, hoping they want to do the same with you, and anticipating that because you have a good relationship, and you've done your best as a parent, that they will help and support you in old age; and

Feeling fully entitled, just because you birthed someone, that they owe you help and support, often more than they want or are able to give, and at sometimes at great sacrifice to themselves and their immediate families. And making no plans to practically support themselves as 'my kids will sort it out'

Unfortunately I think a lot of people experience the latter as their parents age

That’s very true. And our views are coloured accordingly. The latter is completely alien to me. I guess I’m lucky.

I agree @forpeeetssake.

I’d add there is also your life experiences that actually will colour how you see things.
My parents emigrated and lived overseas for most of their life. I did too and lived in a few countries myself.

I’m not expecting the dcs to live close to me. I’m not even hoping they will (because I will miss them etc…).
I’m hoping they will look at the world and grab the opportunities that work for them. And if what makes them happy is close to me, that’s great. If it’s on the other side of the world, then that’s ok too.

I’ve done that with my own parents and grand parents. I’ve seen them regularly (and as regularly as some people who all live in the U.K. if MN is to be believed). I’ve always a great bond and Relationship with them.

And yes this means that they won’t be close to me when I returned and get old. Just like I’m not close to my own parents either (THEY decided to move away!). That’s ok and planned for. This would be the same if I had been childless, gone NC with my family etc….

My parents also emigrated and took us, kids, with them but it actually taught me the importance of family. When they became elderly I made sure we came back to be closer to them. Family is more important than exotic destinations

We emigrated. At the time, MIL was healthy. We had no DC, so we were able to visit regularly, until I got pregnant and stopped being able to fly frequently.

When she got ill, it happened so fast and so unexpectedly, and we weren't able to be there to say goodbye. Maybe being closer would have enabled us to make a difference (would she have sought treatment sooner, would we have asked the doctors different questions, would certain key decisions in her care have been different and in so, save her life?) and maybe it wouldn't have. We made the decisions we made and we'll never know.

I'm not saying this will happen if you move away, but I am saying it because it happened to us and it's one of the things you might need to be OK with handling at some point down the line if you do decide to go.

But just because you live in a different place to your parents doesn't mean you never see them! I moved away from my parents and we had a fab relationship and saw each other a few times a year. My parents had done the same and moved away from their family too - and yet we still saw aunts, uncles, grandparents and had good long-lasting relationships with all of them.
Proximity does not equal a good relationship.

There is an undelying theme to many posters contributions and across other mumsnet thread other mumsnet threads that the goal of modern life is to arrive at a point where we can live exactly as we like (it's our time!) with no responsibility to others, where we can cruise or travel or take amazing job opportunities, refuse to mind grandchildren ever under any circumstances (like for even one night a year). That seems to me a very shallow and narrow view of life.

You make it sound as if amazing job opportunities are something that happens to other people. People you are suspicious of. What could be more narrow than such a mistrust of travel and rewarding careers?

Actually I see other underlying themes which I think feeds into attitudes on this thread.

Many posters on MN describe themselves as anxious, socially anxious, introverted and having difficulties socialising outside the family.

There’s a marked dependency on close knit families - siblings, parents children, that I don’t find to be representative of the population at large. There’s an expectation of close relationships with GPs and childcare from them.

I also note a general British insularity which I think is probably more representative of the general population, given its profile in the Brexit movement. Significant numbers of people simply did not understand why others might want to have the freedom to travel and live and work abroad.

In short, I identify on MN a higher level of family enmeshment, difficulty socialising, insularity and suspicion of foreign parts than I have ever seen in real life.

I have never asked my parents to do childcare, I don’t think that is their responsibility. I do not think that GPs are babysitters. Nor do I have any intention of providing childcare for my GC.

I have made it clear to my kids that they can live in any country they like and I’ve made sure they speak different languages to a high standard.

Equally, DH and my retirement planning factors in the possibility of long term high cost care in care homes. It has never occurred to me to factor in my children as carers. I find that idea very odd.

So what is being billed here as a self-righteous selflessness, strikes me more as a neediness and inability to let go. Of kids, of parents. To be able to imagine a life outside the narrow family circle.

@TatianaBis

There is an undelying theme to many posters contributions and across other mumsnet thread other mumsnet threads that the goal of modern life is to arrive at a point where we can live exactly as we like (it's our time!) with no responsibility to others, where we can cruise or travel or take amazing job opportunities, refuse to mind grandchildren ever under any circumstances (like for even one night a year). That seems to me a very shallow and narrow view of life.

You make it sound as if amazing job opportunities are something that happens to other people. People you are suspicious of. What could be more narrow than such a mistrust of travel and rewarding careers?

Actually I see other underlying themes which I think feeds into attitudes on this thread.

Many posters on MN describe themselves as anxious, socially anxious, introverted and having difficulties socialising outside the family.

There’s a marked dependency on close knit families - siblings, parents children, that I don’t find to be representative of the population at large. There’s an expectation of close relationships with GPs and childcare from them.

I also note a general British insularity which I think is probably more representative of the general population, given its profile in the Brexit movement. Significant numbers of people simply did not understand why others might want to have the freedom to travel and live and work abroad.

In short, I identify on MN a higher level of family enmeshment, difficulty socialising, insularity and suspicion of foreign parts than I have ever seen in real life.

I have never asked my parents to do childcare, I don’t think that is their responsibility. I do not think that GPs are babysitters. Nor do I have any intention of providing childcare for my GC.

I have made it clear to my kids that they can live in any country they like and I’ve made sure they speak different languages to a high standard.

Equally, DH and my retirement planning factors in the possibility of long term high cost care in care homes. It has never occurred to me to factor in my children as carers. I find that idea very odd.

So what is being billed here as a self-righteous selflessness, strikes me more as a neediness and inability to let go. Of kids, of parents. To be able to imagine a life outside the narrow family circle.

Very interesting and well-made observations about the MN community @TatianaBis.

@Summerplans7

DH’s company has been talking to him about the chance of a transfer abroad. His job is perfectly safe here in the U.K., but the opportunity abroad is a country we have both always wanted to live in (although with Covid restrictions almost impossible to get to at the moment), but it would take us far from his elderly parents.

His mother would be devastated as she is close to our children and has been lonely over the last few years due to Covid, and the health of his his father has declined severely (he has dementia and isn’t really “there” anymore). I feel guilty even considering it. So does DH.

Do you think it would be selfish to go? It would be selfish of course, I know, but these chances only come around once in a lifetime (for us anyway).

All the restrictions have made us crave an adventure more than ever. The country we are considering is also frequently on the top of the list for qualify of life, and places to raise children, making it more tempting. And I have a good friend who lives there, so it wouldn’t be totally alien.

MIL wouldn’t want to come, even if FIL wasn’t unwell, so that’s not an option. She has a lot of friends and a community here and doesn’t intend to ever leave her area. She is actually pushing us to move nearer (we’re not far at the moment), has even suggested we all move in together (not an option for me).

Will MIL be willing to move with you?

What a lovely condescending, self satisfied post @TatianaBis. From someone who can’t imagine living anywhere outside London and cites one of the reasons for that to be close to their family. It’s so inconvenient that some MN regulars have good memories, isn’t it?

How old is your MIL? I think that’s relevant. Is she able to visit?

Also the move doesn’t have to be permanent - or could be for a few years. I ask about age because if she’s 90 a few years is a lot more problematic than if she’s in her 60s given you say she’s also wealthy and healthy!

Also Vancouver is super beautiful and also it’s good for kids to experience different places and people!

There seems to be a conflation of support and actually enjoying being with someone. I was gutted when my sister emigrated to Australia. I've seen her once in 5 years. I don't know when I will see her again but we won't be able to afford it for another 10 years so it depends on when they can. I don't really know her kids as they are no old enough to really connect on a phone or zoom. It's nonsense to pretend that zoom is anything like real contact. I never wanted any support from my sister and if I ever need any support I absolutely do not want her to do it. But, as someone else said, there's nothing like sharing a bottle of wine over the kitchen table. And we can't do that.

Even if people do not want or expect support they can still feel upset at not being able to see family again.

The OP and her OH need to just decide whether that is a strong enough pull to keep them here or not.

I didn't put any pressure on my sister not to stay BTW. It's her life and her decision. It does, obviously affect me though and although I can be pleased for he in getting something she wanted, I can also be sad for me at the massive negative change in my family relationships.

@TatianaBis what a horrible load of snobbery dusted up as urbane intellectualism.

Plenty of people on here are well traveled, educated, erudite individuals who may even be polyglots!

The point I think still remains that the op has specific circumstances to her situation that may well preclude her from such a freewheeling cut loose attitude.

Anyway the familial obligations are real. My parents are dead. DHs are in rude health with ££ but the fact remains that they appreciate and need our very occasional help and support.

I can only speak from my own life experience.

@Blossomtoes

What a lovely condescending, self satisfied post *@TatianaBis*. From someone who can’t imagine living anywhere outside London and cites one of the reasons for that to be close to their family. It’s so inconvenient that some MN regulars have good memories, isn’t it?

The problem with picking up fag ends and throwing them knee-jerk fashion, is that it’s inevitably piecemeal.

I wouldn’t want to live anywhere but London in the U.K, partly for its multiculturalism and ease of travel. But I’ve lived all over the world, half my family are French, and I have property abroad. We’re intending to retire abroad for a period.

I want to be near my dad while he’s dying, but my mum is quite happy to live here or abroad after that as she doesn’t like the British climate much.

None of this has anything to do with OP’s DH, whom, unlike others on this thread I think is free to make his own choices. The thought of judging him and attacking him via OP is bizarre.

@Atalune

I knew there would be a lot of squawking. There are plenty of people who are extremely well travelled on these forums, but there are also plenty as I describe.

The judgment of whether OP is able to be ‘freewheeling’ is not yours to make, but her DH’s. I don’t know this is so hard to grasp.

That moving countries for a job could be described as freewheeling made me chuckle. DH is not proposing to sell up a sail round the world on a yacht.

I would feel so happy and proud of my kids if they had the courage to follow their dreams. If I ever found out they missed out on a great opportunity just to hang around my and dh's sorry old selves, I would feel enormous guilt, regret and even a bit disappointment. It would make it easier for me and dh to pop the clocks knowing that our kids are in a good place, in the best place for them. I wouldn't want to be panicking on my death bed worrying about my dcs and dgcs futures.

[quote Remoulade]@theleafandnotthetree

There are two emotions I would have. "I will miss you greatly" and "I am so proud of you". "What about me" would not enter my mind, because I will make sure I am set for my old age. My children will fly free, because I love them and will not ever hinder them.[/quote]
Ha!

I've lost count of the things my mum said she'd never do. And when she hit late 70s she 'forgot' all those things. Particularly the bit about how she never wanted us to have to look after her or have her live with us when she was old.
We had an absolutely awful fall out when she became disabled and was insisting that my brother took her in to live with him so that he and his wife could care for her.

Which only shows that everyone is different.

My parents said the same thing than @Remoulade. They are late 70s now and have stuck toi their words tbh.
Just like my own grand parents (both sets) have too......

I know it’s not a jolly- it’s a life choice, but the excitement is palpable from the op (of course).

The decision falls to DH about HIS family but not without joint considerations, hence why the op posted in the first place.

It’s been a great discussion.

I hope the op comes back with some input.