Think the way people use the term 'trans widow' is insensitive to actual widows?

[justmaybenot]

The wives of men who have transitioned often use the term 'trans widow' and some of the responses to this letter from an actual widow have expressed some envy for someone whose husband has died rather than transitioned. AIBU to think it's overblown and deeply insensitive to liken the experience of your dh transitioning to the position of someone whose dh has actually died? This is the letter rachelemoss.com/2021/06/24/a-letter-to-trans-widows-from-an-actual-widow/

'Trans people don’t erase their pasts by transitioning! They don’t only exist from the moment they come out!

Then why do some trans widows exes celebrate the day they came out as a new birthday?

Op.
I understand why that statement is upsetting. I was told that that I had it easier than someone who had been left by her husband. My husband didn’t choose to leave ( that would be fine if I was just concerned with myself but there was also the pain of seeing my husband have to say goodbye to his children and the awfulness of his despair). It’s just stupidity really . People can be insensitive but it’s best to try to accept that it’s a lack of understanding and not dwell too much.

this is a current political issue because opposition parties have a declared policy of removing the spousal exit clause. Press coverage is important because many people (including the writer of this letter) don’t seem to be aware of the issues.

But you know, as long as the people who are forcing their partners to deny or rewrite decades of their lives can be ‘authentic’…

@saraclara

If a man who says he feels like a woman is allowed to demand to be treated as a literal woman, why can a woman who feels like a widow not be allowed to say she is a widow?

Well if you have a problem with the former, then unless you are a total hypocrite, you should also have a problem with the latter, surely?

Yes, and I’ve already said that when we can cancel the situations surrounding these women and the TWAW mantra that so many chant, then it might be possible also to cancel the this terminology. Whilst one or more entities persist in setting out rigid demands in language and terminology on the one side, there needs to be reciprocity in language and terminology on the other, and the same standards applied across the board.

However just in case you actually cannot see it, there are some big differences here, so your point really isn’t the gotcha you think it is.

Firstly, one is a reaction to the other. The acting party cannot expect the other party not to react. That’s not how it works. You set the arena, you had better expect me to protect my interests and those of other women within that arena.

Also, and more importantly, one seeks to create a metaphorical picture and does not claim direct equivalence. The other demands a literal and direct equivalence (which does not exist and never will - sex is biological fact, and immutable).

Several other differences have also been outlined on this thread.

However as this topic has been discussed on two different threads now, and as OP has spoken about her personal circumstances, which lends some understand as to why she posted this, I’ve decided I’ve say what I need to say.

*said

Ugh, *understanding!

It is a difficult subject. It’s difficult for many people to talk about these things. But it needs to be talked about. As pp have said, this is hugely important in legal and social terms right now.

Hence doubling down on trying to shut up the relevant women.

Relevant articles for further context:

'A Plea for Help for Feminists from a Trans Widow'
makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/a-plea-for-help-for-feminists-from-a-trans-widow

'Trans Widows and the Spousal “Veto”: a modern fable of male entitlement'
makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/trans-widows-and-the-spousal-veto-a-modern-fable-of-male-entitlement

'The Spousal Exit Clause: Trans Widows’s Rights Are Not Yours to Give Away'
uncommongroundmedia.com/spousal-exit-clause/

'Which Side Are You On, Girls? The Role of Trans Widows in Feminism'
uncommongroundmedia.com/which-side-are-you-on-girls-trans-widows/

James Kirkup 'The minister who politely refused to play the trans language game'
www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-minister-who-politely-refused-to-play-the-trans-language-game

Dr Em
uncommongroundmedia.com/domestic-abuse-related-to-late-transitioning-partners-part-i-coercive-control/

uncommongroundmedia.com/domestic-abuse-related-to-late-transitioning-partners-part-ii-gaslighting-patterns-of-behaviour/

uncommongroundmedia.com/agp-males-domestic-abuse-part-iii-sexual-abuse/

uncommongroundmedia.com/agp-males-domestic-abuse-part-iv-sissyfication-submissive-women/

Ah ok so two wrong make a right. One group is absolute in their language so the other decides hey, me too.

It’s irrelevant then, that widowhood now is apparently a metaphor, an analogy and a feeling, and that actually diminishes and undermines the feelings and experiences of women who are physically bereaved of their partner and father to their children.

Because fair is fair, right?

When actually it isn’t. Some of you on this thread claim you’re fighting for women by appropriating the word widow and sticking a prefix in front of it. You are fighting for some women - a subsection of women who were or are married to a trans person. But in your fight, you’re offending other women and showing blatant disregard and disrespect to their own lived experience to further your own agendas.

FWIW, as I said earlier, my heart goes out to any woman who has experienced the shock and heartache of the person they love transitioning. I also wholeheartedly believe that the legal changes proposed are damaging to women.

@Blackberrycream

Op. I understand why that statement is upsetting. I was told that that I had it easier than someone who had been left by her husband. My husband didn’t choose to leave ( that would be fine if I was just concerned with myself but there was also the pain of seeing my husband have to say goodbye to his children and the awfulness of his despair). It’s just stupidity really . People can be insensitive but it’s best to try to accept that it’s a lack of understanding and not dwell too much.

That's awful. People are very thoughtless. I am very sorry for your loss, and your family's despair. I was told at least I won't have the pain of an empty nest as my ds will probably never be able to live independently.

It's strange, in my parents' generation (they were born in the 1930s) 3 men they knew well killed themselves as they were closet trans. That was in rural Ireland, 1980s-1990s. It suggested to me that acceptance is vital, preferably before someone gets married and creates an entire ecosystem of pain. The violence of some of the discourse around trans rights is so appalling and I understand the pushback but I have no idea how this is all going to end. I really do feel for anyone affected by it.

@justmaybenot I am genuinely saddened by your situation. It must be awful and I cannot imagine what you are going through.

To some extent I can understand that you feel that transwidows still have their spouse, that at least they are not dead.

I can relate to that feeling as both my parents are dead. When I was much younger, I sometimes found it hard to listen endlessly to problems friends had with their parents as I just wanted to say “at least your parents are alive”.

However, we don’t ever fully understand anyone’s else’s situation. People can go through immense traumas that we cannot comprehend. Some people are genuinely estranged from their parents who have been incredibly abusive. It is the same at the end of a marriage. In addition, for transwidows, there is no love left. There is what many experience as a massive betrayal of the very foundations of their marriage and they are asked to forget and erase everything they have experienced now together.

Please do read the transwidows stories. They made my cry reading it.

I cannot believe that there is a single woman here who doesn’t feel a huge amount of sympathy for what you are going through.

We also have a huge amount of sympathy for the transwidows, especially as we have gotten to know them here on this forum. Tinsel has received death threats and rape threats based on the article you quoted. She has also gone through a horrific time.

I meant on twitter

Oh I see, OP. That sounds awful. (And having read your update I can only stare open-mouthed at the person who told you at least you won't have the pain of an empty nest as your ds will probably never be able to live independently. I'm sorry you had to hear that.)

I suppose people say some unreasonable things when they're wild with grief. I think maybe Rachel Moss was doing the same in her blog. Maybe she feels a bit better for having a dig at women who are mourning their marriages, saying The media and your online friends have encouraged you to think there’s some kind of malignant trans cabal who have stolen your partner, who have taken away your happy life. But there isn’t, and you are as responsible for the future (or not) of your marriage as your partner is.

But I sympathise with all who lose a partner they loved. And I admire those who don't judge others for their grief reactions. So I'll leave it there. All best wishes, OP.

Some of you on this thread claim you’re fighting for women by appropriating the word widow and sticking a prefix in front of it.

It's hardly appropriating the word when it's usage is widely recognised in other contexts. The dictionary will tell you that. It's fine that you don't like the meaning of the word to be used in other contexts. However it can and is used in other contexts. And that will continue to be so.

@Erikrie

Some of you on this thread claim you’re fighting for women by appropriating the word widow and sticking a prefix in front of it.

It's hardly appropriating the word when it's usage is widely recognised in other contexts. The dictionary will tell you that. It's fine that you don't like the meaning of the word to be used in other contexts. However it can and is used in other contexts. And that will continue to be so.

Ok so your view is more valid than mine why?

Because you shout it louder with your friends? Because you use statements as sentences? Because you decided so that is the way it is, regardless of who it offends?

You continuing to use a word and expand its definition to suit your own agenda is up to you.

However it can and is rejected by people when used in other contexts. And that will continue to be so.... as someone once said.

Ok so your view is more valid than mine why?

Did I say my view was more valid? I don't believe I did. I pointed out to you that, as per the dictionary, the word widow is used across various contexts. That's not a view. That's simply a fact. And I will continue to use it as per the definition, because I can, because it's appropriate, and because I'm not allowing other people to police my language.

Ditto.

It’s easy really.
Widow- a woman who has lost her spouse to death and has not remarried.
Trans widow- using the word to express something of the situation ( also clearly demarcated).
Words can also be used in a metaphorical sense in all kinds of situations.
Any who thinks definitions don’t matter hasn’t been paying too much attention lately.

Anyone ; sorry

It isn’t to make it ‘fair’. None of this is fair. For any of the parties.

However it’s necessary right now to allow women to speak about their experiences in this regard using whatever words they can find to convey them. Now, arguably more than ever - certainly than at any time in the last half century.

Because of the urgency of matters and overarching issues which affect us all and most of all those most vulnerable amongst us, it is required of many of us to be more robust in defending this particular position than we might ordinarily choose to be.

I obviously have absolutely no beef with any widow who finds this difficult or who is personally offended by it. I will always extend my good will and wishes regardless of where they might stand on this issue. I will not invalidate their feelings. I would respectfully ask their forgiveness for the hurt it causes, where no malice is intended.

That doesn’t mean I won’t also feel it necessary to uphold a moral principle that needs upholding.

🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻

It’s Sunday night; I’m going to leave this thread now and have a couple of G&Ts. I shall toast, sincerely, wounded, hurting, grieving, brave and courageous women everywhere.

@Ninkanink
I absolutely agree with the sentiment of your post. I do think it important to say that words matter as I think that is part of the issue in general and very central to attacks on women and their rights. However, trans widow is absolutely valid ( as is trans woman).
Widow and woman are more specific.
There really is no issue with widows/ trans widows.

Oh yes @Blackberrycream.

The two are quite distinct in application.

Words and definitions absolutely do matter. Sex matters. Biological fact matters.

I’m (we’re) fighting this battle under duress, it’s been imposed upon me (us).

Goodnight all.

I think the partner of most people who have mental health issues are going to feel alone. It doesn't need a title though.

@underneaththeash

I think the partner of most people who have mental health issues are going to feel alone. It doesn't need a title though.

It does. Having a word for something acknowledges its existence and gives a frame of reference for it. People who struggle with various mental or physical conditions often feel relieved when they find it has a name. It's recognisable, definable, and not some weird mystery that isn't visible enough to name.

The identity movement is all about people defining their own experiences through naming.

If a woman feels bereaved because of extreme changes in her spouse, she should be able to call herself a widow - especially if it helps her get support from other women in the same situation.

@underneaththeash

I think the partner of most people who have mental health issues are going to feel alone. It doesn't need a title though.

Says who?

It's not "just" mental health issues, though some would say that's transphobic.

It's the mental, emotional, financial and sometimes sexual and physical abuse these women suffer.

www.transwidowsvoices.org/post/philomena-s-story-there-and-back-again