Think the way people use the term 'trans widow' is insensitive to actual widows?

[justmaybenot]

The wives of men who have transitioned often use the term 'trans widow' and some of the responses to this letter from an actual widow have expressed some envy for someone whose husband has died rather than transitioned. AIBU to think it's overblown and deeply insensitive to liken the experience of your dh transitioning to the position of someone whose dh has actually died? This is the letter rachelemoss.com/2021/06/24/a-letter-to-trans-widows-from-an-actual-widow/

Oh please, I don't care about voting. I've asked MNHQ to delete it if it's upsetting or offensive. I am genuinely naive, I'm not in the UK nor on MN much and the debate is less intense where I am. I'll leave it at that

I've clearly been naive

Or ignorant? Thats not meant as an insult, many people are completely clueless on this issue, it's been pretty much ignored in the media till recently. Have you by now taken the time to read some of the transwidows to try to understand what's happening to them?

Don't have it deleted, op. You were only looking for opinions, right? And here they are, in abundance.

OP YABVU on two counts:

1. To use a woman's blog post written when she is dealing with the recent death of her husband in incredibly tragic circumstances to score points. Do you have any awareness of the nature of grief?
   uksobs.org/we-can-help/

2. To attack a group of women who have formed a support group to raise awareness of particular demonstration of intimate partner abuse and to try to protect the legal rights they currently have.

'These Chains That Have No Name: Interview with Trans Widows Voices' By Donovan Cleckley
(extract)
"I know that I felt very isolated during my marriage. Being your husband’s secret keeper and sharing his ‘closet’ is claustrophobic. When my ex-husband started to think about leaving the closet, he quickly gained a Greek chorus of online supporters cheering on his progress toward transition. I had nobody until very late on when I told my best friends.

I didn’t find any groups or support networks for trans widows, indeed that name didn’t exist back then. The only thing I found was the Women of the Beaumont Society (WOBS), and this seemed to consist of older women putting up with teeth grindingly miserable relationships with crossdressers – or younger women in what I now know to be abusive relationships with autogynephilic men. I didn’t relate to either of these.

After I had left the marriage and begun to reflect, this is what motivated me to start connecting with other trans widows on Mumsnet and what motivated me to start Trans Widows Voices. I passionately believe that women should not feel like they are on their own when they are in that situation. I also realized that nobody was going to step up and help us – we have to make connections and help ourselves and each other." (continues)
www.womenarehuman.com/these-chains-that-have-no-name-interview-with-trans-widows-voices/

I'm actually not on MN much at all, I'd no idea this is the one place people come to tell their stories and thought AIBU was a general thread - as I said, I searched for 'trans widow' on MN before posting. I've clearly been naive, I'll ask for the thread to be deleted if that's best.

You think a woman calling herself a transwidow is insensitive to actual widows, so do you also think someone calling themselves a trans woman is insensitive to actual women?

This

@ErrolTheDragon

I've clearly been naive

Or ignorant? Thats not meant as an insult, many people are completely clueless on this issue, it's been pretty much ignored in the media till recently. Have you by now taken the time to read some of the transwidows to try to understand what's happening to them?

I have now, but when I said it was shocking people had been threatened with rape I was quizzed about why I hadn't posted on that so best if I don't say much more I think. As I said, I'm not in the UK and the legal situation and resulting level of intensity is different where I am, so yes I'm not as clued up about the UK situation.

I’m widowed.

I find the comparison offensive. Because death and widowhood is final. You can’t speak to the person ever again. I also find the golf widow etc term offensive.

This is because it minimises the very real emotional trauma of your husband being six feet under or in an urn. A woman whose relationship ended due to her husband becoming a woman will I’m sure have emotional trauma. But it is different.

So yes. It is offensive. But I also have absolute recognition for the ladies who have had their whole future ripped apart due to a transition.

Utilising the word widow - I can understand the correlation but it’s not the same.

I would like to add my voice here in case MNHQ come checking, that I think this thread should absolutely not be deleted. This discussion is important. And I also want to add my opinion that this thread should stand in the topic in which it posted.

@justmaybenot I’m perfectly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were, indeed, posting in good faith. Now that you’re here I’d suggest reading up on the trans wives threads and also the rest of the feminism topic (there are two sections now which is a little confusing, but hey ho). Perhaps you’ll better understand the reception you’ve had and what people here have said once you’ve done some further reading.

1. Unfortunately, I am only too well aware of the nature of grief, thank you.
2. I didn't attack an organised group of women, I asked a question on a public forum. I've said I've asked for the thread to be deleted if it's upsetting. Not all women whose husbands have transitioned have the same experience. Not everyone on MN lives in the UK. I've seen some of the comments Rachel Mosse received, and I do think it's obnoxious for people to say that she is in a better position than if her husband had transitioned instead of dying. That's all.

So the majority of MN users on the S&G board (where the same discussion was had yesterday*) were in favour of the use of the term & supportive of trans widows.

• It included a vile post from someone who didn't like the term 'trans widow' which has now thankfully been deleted.

Today, the majority of users on AIBU (currently 82% of 419 users) also support the use of the term 'trans widow' & many posts are supportive of the position of trans widows as well as discussing the term.

To dismiss these results as a few loud women, or to suggest that these results don't speak for the views of the general population, is groundless.

I sympathise with both trans widows & widows/women whose husband has died, & having been through grief at the loss of loved ones myself & seen it in others, I know that one's emotions are all over the place. A newly-bereaved woman may well find herself hurt to the core by seeing 'widow' used in other circumstances: to me, it's a sign of her own pain, not a sign that the word shouldn't be used in that way.

To give an analogy from my own life, after I came upon a car accident involving children & stopped to help, I suffered shock & trauma, & for some time afterwards every bloody programme or advert on TV seemed to feature a car accident, & I responded to them differently from normal. But that was because of what I'd been through. It didn't mean no car accidents should ever be shown on TV.

to all who've been through loss.

justmaybenot There will be 'transwidows' wherever you live. The website has women from many countries accessing it as a vital point of support and connection for many who are otherwise very isolated.
Rather than attacking these women for the name they have used to find each other, you would do well to read their testimonies.

www.transwidowsvoices.org/

What term would you prefer us to use?

@LolaButt I’m very sorry for your loss.

I sympathise with both trans widows & widows/women whose husband has died, & having been through grief at the loss of loved ones myself & seen it in others, I know that one's emotions are all over the place. A newly-bereaved woman may well find herself hurt to the core by seeing 'widow' used in other circumstances: to me, it's a sign of her own pain, not a sign that the word shouldn't be used in that way.

This ^^

@Ninkanink

I would like to add my voice here in case MNHQ come checking, that I think this thread should absolutely not be deleted. This discussion is important. And I also want to add my opinion that this thread should stand in the topic in which it posted.

@justmaybenot I’m perfectly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were, indeed, posting in good faith. Now that you’re here I’d suggest reading up on the trans wives threads and also the rest of the feminism topic (there are two sections now which is a little confusing, but hey ho). Perhaps you’ll better understand the reception you’ve had and what people here have said once you’ve done some further reading.

Thank you for the benefit of the doubt, I will read up more, certainly. I'll leave it up to MNHQ whether to delete the thread or not. Thanks again.

[quote Ninkanink]@LolaButt I’m very sorry for your loss. [/quote]
That’s kind of you, thank you.

And women?

On seeing the word woman being repurposed?

No issue there?

Trans widows are grieving, often 20, 30 years of married life. Many with kids who also lose their father.

Surely we have room to understand that grief too!

I'm actually not on MN much at all, I'd no idea this is the one place people come to tell their stories

Come on. The letter you linked says:

You’ve even made the Sunday Telegraph. It feels good, right, to feel seen? That’s probably what led you to seek out women in similar situations when your partner first announced they wanted to transition. You probably sat on Mumsnet or searched hashtags on twitter

@LolaButt

I’m widowed.

I find the comparison offensive. Because death and widowhood is final. You can’t speak to the person ever again. I also find the golf widow etc term offensive.

This is because it minimises the very real emotional trauma of your husband being six feet under or in an urn. A woman whose relationship ended due to her husband becoming a woman will I’m sure have emotional trauma. But it is different.

So yes. It is offensive. But I also have absolute recognition for the ladies who have had their whole future ripped apart due to a transition.

Utilising the word widow - I can understand the correlation but it’s not the same.

I'm very sorry for your loss and trauma.

LolaButt

I’m sorry for your loss.

Utilising the word widow - I can understand the correlation but it’s not the same.

It’s not the same, I agree, which is why they use the term trans widows and not widows.

@merrymouse

I'm actually not on MN much at all, I'd no idea this is the one place people come to tell their stories

Come on. The letter you linked says:

You’ve even made the Sunday Telegraph. It feels good, right, to feel seen? That’s probably what led you to seek out women in similar situations when your partner first announced they wanted to transition. You probably sat on Mumsnet or searched hashtags on twitter

'Sat on Mumsnet' didn't indicate anything to me about it being especially for women whose partners have transitioned.

@justmaybenot

1. Unfortunately, I am only too well aware of the nature of grief, thank you.

1. I didn't attack an organised group of women, I asked a question on a public forum. I've said I've asked for the thread to be deleted if it's upsetting. Not all women whose husbands have transitioned have the same experience. Not everyone on MN lives in the UK. I've seen some of the comments Rachel Mosse received, and I do think it's obnoxious for people to say that she is in a better position than if her husband had transitioned instead of dying. That's all.

I do understand why those comments would be upsetting. Totally.

But coming from a horrifically abusive relationship myself, I would, at several points, have preferred that he died than continue to be stalked and had my kids traumatized for the following 8 years.

I don't think they meant that they envied that particular widows pain. Who would? Just that if their abusive ex died, it would have been easier for them personally. If you see what I mean. That doesn't help the widow, but if you step in to such and emotive subject you will get emotive responses.

@justmaybenot

Oh please, I don't care about voting. I've asked MNHQ to delete it if it's upsetting or offensive. I am genuinely naive, I'm not in the UK nor on MN much and the debate is less intense where I am. I'll leave it at that

Oh no, I think this thread should definitely stand.