To think if you have dc then you have to stay with their dad? Unless there’s abuse / cheating

[Rollingsunset]

I’m really not very happy but I am of the opinion that if you have dc then your happiness doesn’t really matter anymore and unless there’s abuse / cheating which is clearly cut and dry, there’s a duty to keep the family together?
I wish I didn’t feel like this, because I have so much guilt tied up in everything. I’m not happy but I don’t feel it’s ‘bad’ enough. It’s nothing I can change or improve, it’s just as it is. The dc and DH are ok though so I feel like I owe it to them to keep it together.
AIBU to think that once you have children it doesn’t matter how happy you are? You have to do everything you can to keep the family as a unit?

@Waxonwaxoff0

I'm divorced and a child of divorced parents, neither caused me any issues

Ummmm... Apart from your ability to choose the right partner and form a lasting relationship, clearly.

Sorry but come on. Can we not pretend being divorced is a sign of self love and general brilliance rather than an indicator of having ballsed up a fairly critical life choice? Not that staying in a crap relationship is better but the fundamental truth of both situations is that we chose wrong.

[quote Draineddraineddrained]@Waxonwaxoff0

I'm divorced and a child of divorced parents, neither caused me any issues

Ummmm... Apart from your ability to choose the right partner and form a lasting relationship, clearly.

Sorry but come on. Can we not pretend being divorced is a sign of self love and general brilliance rather than an indicator of having ballsed up a fairly critical life choice? Not that staying in a crap relationship is better but the fundamental truth of both situations is that we chose wrong.[/quote]
You think children of married parents never get divorced then?

You can live your life thinking you failed somehow if you want, but I'm not. I'm happy with my choices and how my life has turned out.

[quote Draineddraineddrained]@Waxonwaxoff0

I'm divorced and a child of divorced parents, neither caused me any issues

Ummmm... Apart from your ability to choose the right partner and form a lasting relationship, clearly.

Sorry but come on. Can we not pretend being divorced is a sign of self love and general brilliance rather than an indicator of having ballsed up a fairly critical life choice? Not that staying in a crap relationship is better but the fundamental truth of both situations is that we chose wrong.[/quote]
My mum married my dad within months of meeting him. It's sheer luck he didn't turn out to be an asshole. People are good at disguising their true shitty selves until its too late. If you are happily long term partnered there is a huge element of luck in that. Many relationships fail because one partner develops asshole tendencies that they hid well early in the relationship.

@Waxonwaxoff0

You can live your life thinking you failed somehow if you want, but I'm not. I'm happy with my choices and how my life has turned out

This thread isn't really about you though. The question is about the fine judgment for s parent trying to decide what is more harmful for their children, sticking with the mistake they made when choosing who to have kids with (with all the negative impacts that may have on their children) or getting divorced ( with all the negative impacts that may have on their children). Having as a child experienced both the abusive marriage, the breakdown of said abusive marriage and divorce, splitting my life between two parents who didn't hate each other any less just because they were mo longer together and were permanently connected by me, an array of step parent figures including a step mother who had s similarly rocky relationship with my dad but "stayed for the kids", I'm here to tell you it's all bullshit. And all I ever wanted as a child was one home with one mum and one dad who loved each other.

It really, really, REALLY isn't as simple as "happy mum, happy kids" as people on here love to pretend. Whatever the outcome, relationship failure is fucking hard on the kids.

YABU. I haven't rtft but children's happiness depends on the parents happiness and your outlook is very short sighted , you're not looking at the bigger picture IMO

The question is about the fine judgment for s parent trying to decide what is more harmful for their children, sticking with the mistake they made when choosing who to have kids with (with all the negative impacts that may have on their children) or getting divorced ( with all the negative impacts that may have on their children). Having as a child experienced both the abusive marriage, the breakdown of said abusive marriage and divorce, splitting my life between two parents who didn't hate each other any less just because they were mo longer together and were permanently connected by me, an array of step parent figures including a step mother who had s similarly rocky relationship with my dad but "stayed for the kids", I'm here to tell you it's all bullshit. And all I ever wanted as a child was one home with one mum and one dad who loved each other

Well in the absence of a mum and dad who loved each other being a possibility, people might as well do whatever option allows them to be happy, then. Unless we're just here to tell people off?

It really, really, REALLY isn't as simple as "happy mum, happy kids" as people on here love to pretend. Whatever the outcome, relationship failure is fucking hard on the kids.

I don't think anyone believes that. But miserable mum and shitty dad = unhappy kids.

Shitty marriages are also, rucking hard on the kids.

Unfortunately, if you find yourself married to a shitbag, the kids are more than likely to have issues. So it's picking the poison isn't it? What's worse?

Personally, I have a fairly unique perspective. My parents split when I was young. Mum and dad spent many years fighting in courts. Mum moved us away. Dad finally tracked us down. Mum and dad got back together eventually and are still married now. But they were miserable.

I was about 10 when they got back together. Obviously, I would have rather had both parents in my life.

But life was better when I only had one parent rather than 2 parents who were together for the wrong reasons and miserable as sin. No kids live at home now, but they stay together, not quite happy. But existing. At 30 I had to put my foot down and tell them I was fed up of hearing it and that I had no sympathy. Given they got divorced and chose to get back together.

Unfortunately, a miserable marriage can be as damaging if not more, than a split.

All of it is so fucking hard.

It really, really, REALLY isn't as simple as "happy mum, happy kids" as people on here love to pretend. Whatever the outcome, relationship failure is fucking hard on the kids.

Relationship failure is always hard on the kids, but it is much harder on them if you insist on putting them though the nastiness of living with unhappy miserable parents every single day of their lives.

At least with separated parents they get at a fresh of breath air from the toxicity of a home for at least part of the week.

@Ladylokidoki

Sounds horrible and i absolutely agree it's shit for kids with parents together who hate each other too. I just hate this blithe "ltb Hun, you deserve to be happeeeee, kids are so ADAPTABLE" line that gets spun, as if divorce never fucked a kid up. Leaving a dull but non-abusive marriage is no guarantee of happiness for one thing - the OP at least is aware of that - and moreover even if mum is happy as a clam her kids will still have to deal with their father for some of the time without the buffer of their mother, not to mention alongside any new woman and additional children he chooses to bring into the fray over which the OP has no control. Where there is no abuse, it really is not straightforward. You ARE choosing your poison, and hoping your kids are immune to the one you pick. So it is actually a dilemma, not a no brainer or s zero sum game as some are so eager to present it. And the idea that young kids are "sooooo adaptable" is very fucking convenient for parents who want to move on with their lives. We were not adaptable, we were traumatised and remain so in various ways (parents divorced when I was 3 and my sister was 5). And that WAS an abusive marriage we actually we're better off out of. So if it's just a case of being bored with each other and not quite on the same page, no I do not see the parents' putative happiness (which may or may not transpire outside of their miserable marriage, which it is worth remembering they chose and are 50% of) as of inherent virtue over and above the risks it will expose their children to. It's not one or the other; it's a delicate balance and the answer will be different for each family. All this twee "you have a right to happiness" bollocks is frankly pissing in the wind. No-one is guaranteed happiness by any course of action, and no parent should prioritise their own happiness and blithely assume their kids' happiness will follow.

@GrandmasCat

At least with separated parents they get at a fresh of breath air from the toxicity of a home for at least part of the week

So to put it bluntly, assuming dad is the problem here, mum should choose her kids being exposed to his toxicity without the mediation of a protective adult 50% of the time, so that she can live toxicity free 100% of the time (assuming she doesn't shack up with another unpleasant partner as many women who leave abusive relationships end up doing, to the detriment of their kids)? Again this sounds like very convenient reasoning. As it goes where there is abuse I think it's the right decision, but in this post at least the OP is not describing that. She's describing two people who are not in love, and an uneven distribution of domestic labour.

Not all parents are abusive and even those who are are, are far less problematic on their own than beating the other one, emotionally or not, out of their senses.

Parents who are neglectful when married are unlikely to spend much time with the children for anyway. Yeah, it is hurtful when contact reduces but surely it is better than being walking on eggshells all the time trying to appease the dragon 24/7?

My ex, my son and I flourished after we split. My ex took a nasty turn years after the split but even if he has become a nightmare I don’t regret leaving, staying wouldn’t have made us a happy family, staying wouldn’t have made him a better parent, we would have parted ways anyways but after years and years of nastiness and resentment.

Things are never ideal, but then divorce is not the domain of cowards and losers, you need far more guts to leave than to stay put, the easier option is to stay to the detriment of the whole family.

I think my parents think we're "flourishing" too. Successful careers, families of our own. Adult children tend not to want to display their dysfunction and vulnerability to their parents.

I never said it was the domain of cowards and losers, merely that it was only one potential outcome of having made a bad decision and it won't unmake that mistake (if there are kids involved). It's one of an array of far from ideal options. If it worked out well for you, great. But for plenty of others it will be as bad or worse than staying put would have been, for the kids. I'm not even saying the OP in this case SHOULD stay (or go). I'm just going against the grain of these threads that all the OP needs to do us to leave her husband and she will automatically be "happy", or that her happiness once achieved will necessarily mean her children are happy too.

@Draineddraineddrained got to be honest I agree.

But also disagree. And I think it depends on your own experiences.

My experience is that shit marriages have damaged kids far more than divorces. Mainly because it's based on the behaviour of the adults.

In my case, yes their dad did the above. Engaged a couple of times in 5 years each time to a woman with multiple kids. Loved with one.

But what I noticed is both my kids who were happy confident toddlers were slowly and systematically having their confidence chipped away at by their father while I was with him. I couldn't always be the buffer.

I left, it was hard and had to work hard to be happy, for us all to be happy. I had to bite my tongue when a another new woman, was introduced. Or i had to deal with countless issues caused by their dad. It was still better.

But 5 years down the line the result is 2 kids who are back to their confident and happy selves. They spend most of their time here. Because they recognise their dad's behaviour isn't comfortable to them and feel they can say when they don't want to go. When we lived with him we couldn't not interact with him. We couldn't not hear his shitty comments.

So I did pick my kids poison. The poison they had was already harming them. So I took a risk and changed in. It was a long recovery, but we are all better.

I would also say, that since his last relationship ended exh has come to realise, some what, how damaging he was an appears to be trying. But no one trust that's yet.

How a parent handles a divorce (or indeed the marriage) in my opinion, is the most important thing. And yes one could be shitty. Both can be shitty. But if that's the case, neither parent really ever had the kids best interests at heart when together.

I would be the first to say if the love is gone in the marriage, but both people get on and respect each other and remain friends, staying together is probably for the best. Which is where I agree.

But that is extremely unusual. Which is why they become a toxic environment for kids. And the advice to leave comes in (usually)

2 adults who have lost all the love and positive feelings or are bored, breed contempt towards each other.

So while I can agree the adults feeling shouldn't always come first and happy mum does not always equal happy children. I really do think 2 adults living in a house who are tolerating each other would produce kids that have many issues of their own.

So I kind of get the 'happy parents happy kids' but also think it's over used and over simplified.

I hope I am explaining myself well

@Ladylokidoki

You are explaining beautifully and the situation you describe is totally understandable and sounds like the best possible outcome under the circs - I'm so glad your kids have come out mentally strong and it sounds like that is down to your hard work.

I think my issue is that none of the adults I'm out lives prioritised our well-being in the way you described. They carried on making bad and damaging decisions for us and themselves and dragged us along in their wake. There were no "safe adults", only an alcoholic misanthrope of a father who at least stuck around and tried to provide for us and a mentally ill mother who did a midnight flit after starting an affair with my aunt's boyfriend (justifiably as by all accounts my dad was horribly abusive to her but still), who then went on from bad relationship to bad relationship, health crisis to health crisis and eventually to suicide, using her kids as an emotional prop along the way. I read a poster like the OP and I don't hear someone who will be able to be the pillar of strength it sounds like you were and that her kids would need to come out well from a separation. I hear the voice of someone depressed, deluded, damaged and passive. I do not perceive that her children's lives would be uplifted by juxtaposing living with that with living with a father who is by all accounts authoritarian and disconnected, but with an added frisson of aggrieved hostility if he was "abandoned" as he clearly believes all is exactly as it should be. There is no good answer here.

I do wish we'd had a strong parent to look out for us like you did. Ironically the closest we got was our stepmum, who took our dad in hand and made him quit drinking - she was bracingly "normal" and gave us what stability we had, but she also had our half sibling with our dad and from that day on our status as lesser was always clear - they were the family unit, we were the add ons.

Anyway as is obvious I'm bringing to much of my shit to this thread to be objective 😆 just wanted to present the other side as it is not always a glorious and empowering march off into the sunset.

@Draineddraineddrained things are never black and white, I’m sure my son was affected by divorce, and so I am. But I can confidently said that we both would be far far worse if I had stayed put.

@Draineddraineddrained

There is much truth in everything that you have said. We all bring our own bag to the conversation. My parents were married for 65 miserable years and had 8 children, all of whom have entered abusive relationships. That is my bag.

The decision is a very personal one and there is no right answer from outside yourself. I had to leave my ex due to abuse, but I am not empowered or strong, I just try my best.

I think my issue is that none of the adults I'm out lives prioritised our well-being in the way you described. They carried on making bad and damaging decisions for us and themselves and dragged us along in their wake

I understand that. I think our point of view differs because I was from a home that did the same, but were together. And that's all that separates our opinions.

I read a poster like the OP and I don't hear someone who will be able to be the pillar of strength it sounds like you were and that her kids would need to come out well from a separation. I hear the voice of someone depressed, deluded, damaged and passive

Yes, I agree. I said much earlier in thread (so I am sure you won't have seen it) that I think the op needs to do some work, wether she stays or goes. I suspect she is depressed and I also suspect the situation is much worse than she said. But I think if she can tackle some other issues, the decision to stay or go will be easier AND she will handle either better.

I do wish we'd had a strong parent to look out for us like you did

Thank you, that's very kind. The one saving grace of my parents divorce and awful remarriage, is that I don't feel they ever acted in the interest of me and my brother. Which impacted us in different ways. And I was determined to not be that parent. At this point I am almost grateful for my parents shit show, because it showed me what not to do.

My exh 2nd fiance was lovely and I hoped she would stick. But it wasn't to be. According to exh she was an alcholic, but he tried to label me that when I once had 3/4 of a glass of wine after work....once. Baring in mind I drink so little the doctors have me recorded as a non drinker. I am hoping she saw she was too good for him. But she did seem to genuinely care about the kids.

And actually, I do understand your side more now. Mainly Through my (now) dp experience. His mother was of the midnight flit variety. And then had more kids and did the flit again. And then a 3rd time. Dp has 6 siblings out there he has never met.

And your views reflect some of his. As his father and step mother were not good parents, unfortunately.

Reading your posts has prompted a few things that I recognise. That hadn't come to to the surface during my other posts.

I must say, it's nice to a have civilised (slight) disagreement on mn

@Kinsters

I think once you have kids there is a duty there to try your best to make the relationship work just because there's more at stake. But there's no obligation to stay in a relationship that doesn't make you happy just because you have kids.

@Kinsters has summed it up perfectly.

I think children pick up on their parent’s unhappiness, and I don’t think that it is particularly good for them, emotionally, to see their mum always unhappy.

And I don’t think it is a particularly good attitude to model for your children - especially if you have daughters - that they must sacrifice any chance of happiness for their family.

Go to Jobcentre and see if they will hire you as a worker. They are taking hundreds on as Work Coaches in pandemic.

@Ladylokidoki

[Grin] it certainly is! I'll get my guitar out and we can do a few rounds of Kumbayah 😂😂😂

There's another thread on the go right now about "would you go back to being a child if you could?" - I'm thinking you, me and your partner would all be in Camp No Fucking Way!

The big question is how long is a reasonable time to spend “saving the marriage”?

I spent 8 years trying to save it when it would have been better to throw the towel after 2-3 years of trying. He didn’t want a divorce but he didn’t want to change either so it was banging a head against a brick wall for more years than it should because I also was raised to believe, through word and example, that once you have made your vows, you happiness doesn’t matter.

I don't know. I couldn't vote on this one as I'm struggling with it too! I oscillate back and forth all the time but the "benefits" of leaving would only be for me, everyone else would suffer (emotionally, financially, physically would have to move) I think this is a case by case matter as every relationship dynamic is so different and people have very different ideas of what abuse is.

@Draineddraineddrained

Grin] it certainly is! I'll get my guitar out and we can do a few rounds of Kumbayah

There's another thread on the go right now about "would you go back to being a child if you could?" - I'm thinking you, me and your partner would all be in Camp No Fucking Way!

You don't want to hear my singing voice

And yes, I will join you in that camp. I'll bring snacks

[quote BearOfEasttown]@Rollingsunset

Despite the protestations and faux disgust and horror from some posters, MANY women stay with men they no longer love, (and in some cases probably never did,) because it's easier than leaving. As you say, as long as there is no abuse or cheating - and they are not desperately unhappy, many women will stay.

Also some women would be significantly worse off financially, and would be living in penury if they left... As a single mother on universal credits/tax credits/housing benefit, (and probably in a rough area in a damp-ridden private rented shit-tip.)

The smug, 'LTB' brigade always come out with the same mantra - JUST LEAVE HIM. But for many women, not only is that not an option, but also it's just easier and more beneficial for them (and the kids) to stay.

Unlike some women on mumsnet, most women in actual real life, are not earning £100K plus a year, with a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow they own, and a solid gold pension they can take at 55 that will render them wealthy enough to go on cruises 3 months of the year, and buy an 8 berth caravan.

In reality, many of these women will be claiming housing benefits and tax credits, just to survive, then will probably end up paying back half of the tax credits in 3-4 years as the tax credits departments always gets it wrong.

Then when their kids leave school, they will be working in B & M or Tesco with an 8 hour a week contract, scrabbling to get more hours, and having to decide which to pay this month - the water rates or the electric, as she doesn't have enough for both.

Then after several years of this, she will bite the bullet, and just get a job in a factory. Hard work, long shifts, but the hours are guaranteed, and the pay is better...

Well, 'better' enough to pay for the rent and bills and food. And if she is lucky enough to get overtime, she may have enough for one night a month at the pub, and a week in Blackpool every September.

If she is VERY lucky, she may meet another man to share the bills, rent, and chores with. Another man who is exactly like the man she left 8-10 years earlier. Because no matter what anyone says, most men are the same, most relationships are the same, and you can leave one, just to find the next one is the same, or worse than the one you left. Not always, but often...

Seriously, life is not a bed of roses in many marriages, but for many women, (particularly with school age children,) it will be significantly worse if they leave.

The idea (that is often peddled on here,) that a woman can leave her husband, get a university degree, retrain for a new career, and be on £100K within 2 years, and own her own cosy little home (all paid for within 5 years of course as she on OOOODLES of money) and have a lavish new career, lots of new friends, and then retire at 55 is just utter UTTER fantasy.

In real life, this just doesn't happen. I think some mumsnet users read too many chicklit novels and watch too many chickflicks.

Like a few other posters here who agree with the OP, I know a few women personally (maybe half a dozen,) who left their husband purely because the marriage was dull, he was boring (to her) and she felt she didn't love him.... 3 of them left when the kids had left home, and 3 when the kids were still at school. All but one regretted leaving, and 3 of them are actually back with the husband they left. All 3 went back within 2-5 years.

That's because real life is not the same as the parallel universe of mumsnet.[/quote]
I lived on part time job and housing benefit in small rented flat. I was fine. My child was fine.
I work very hard now in low paid job and I don't mind, quite opposite I'm proud of working hard and making my own money and planning to improve my earning prospects.
I also have a new partner who is not like all other men whatever that means. We're not perfect but we love and support each other and model that to my child.
If we argue and go one day without speaking warmly to each other my child notices because he can tell the difference between healthy and unhealthy relationship despite he's young age.

Not everyone's goal in life is to have an easy ride and retire at 55. And I don't think anyone who kills their own soul in unhappy marriage only to have an easier life ever gets away with it.

That's not to say financial issues should not be considered when deciding to stay or go but I don't believe everyone's life is better just because they can have a better lifestyle.

I couldn't disagree more. This set up may be more damaging to your dc than leaving. You are allowed a happy life.