Disgusted with how MIL spoke to a workman- AIBU?

[Sleeplessem]

So context, MIL doesnt live with DH and I but DH provides for her financially speaking. MIL and DH are Asian (Indian subcontinent) I am white European our DD is very fair (so white passing) MIL doesn’t speak English BUT she understands very basic phrases (think hello, goodbye, my name is etc)

There was a workman doing some work at MILs today that DH had hired. DH gets a call from workman saying that he has introduced himself to MIL several times but she is not calling him by his name, rather she is referring to him as ‘Goreh’ and he’s offended as he’s doing the job for a very good price and has been very careful to make sure she understands what’s going on and is comfortable with a man In her home, yet despite him introducing himself and stating his name she’s been calling him goreh. So he called DH to tell him to tell her to stop or he’ll leave because he doesn’t need it as he’s trying to be helpful. I feel awful for the guy, I’m mortified that she’d treat someone that way.

DH relayed the message but brushed it off as him mum being a bit stupid. I think this is disgusting and it’s purposely talking down to someone who’s doing work in your home.

For context the word goreh means white man. I asked a pakistani friend about it and she was mortified and stated it was really really rude to speak to someone like that. This sort of stuff hits a nerve with me as it is very much how I’m treated by his family. Whilst I understand that white people aren’t victims of racism (I think Akala spoke about it in detail if anyone is interested) the term goreh at least in his family is used in an exclusively derogatory context. Some examples being if someone said you look very goreh today it would be an insult, I’ve been told I have a ‘disgusting gori’ name and family members refused to call me by it, people would stare at me and not let me sit with them at family functions (I’d hear gori, gori and then they’d put their bags on chair so I couldn’t sit there), MIL in particular refused to accept me because I’m ‘gori’ and ‘gori’ have no family values and are all money grabbing etc. So this is how I know, pretty much for certain that goreh/gori is derogatory/ an insult and a slur.

She has a habit of doing really shitty things such as this and gets out of it because she plays dumb. But she’s knows full well that goreh is derogatory and would’ve understood when he told her his name. I’m just mortified and disappointed by her actions yet again, but DH sort of laughs it off.

DH apologised to the work man and made her apologise to so there’s nothing more than can really be done in this situation, so I get that. But this is disgusting behaviour from her right?

[quote Sleeplessem]@3Britnee there is some interesting research on that, it’s not my specialty so I don’t want to go into detail but I think a distinction can be made between racism (a system of oppression) and race based prejudice. Some interesting articles and talks on it if you’re interested xx[/quote]
And a lot or articles and papers view things the other way asking people to stop making similar CRT/CJT based distinctions. See Don't Divide Us for a start dontdivideus.com/who-we-are/

Or Counterweight counterweightsupport.com/counterweight-manifesto/

What the OP described is definitely racist. Good for her that she put her foot down over it. Racism is unacceptable full stop.

[quote cinammonbuns]@Enid9 calling a black man ‘black man’ is not racist. It’s a description like blonde woman or short man.[/quote]
But saying 'hey black man' when he had told you his name was Bob would be really rude and racist.

[quote Sleeplessem]@sortingout there have been other comments that also talk about critical race theory as another poster just mentioned prejudice +power= racism. Please refer to them.[/quote]
Critical race theory is exactly that. A theory. That people debate and disagree on. As people should. Its not reflected in legislation.

I don't need to refer to something I am familiar with. Have you referred to the critiques of critical race theory? I assume you have thoroughly immersed yourself in both side of the debate to feel so confident in dictating to others.

You have an opinion. You do not have The Opinion.

I feel for you OP because it's a difficult situation. I haven't read the full thread but can someone sit with her and talk to her in her language about this? She is racist and it's unacceptable - if someone can have a conversation with her about her views and talk to her about it, it might help? Surely she cannot think that word is acceptable? How would she feel if someone directed a racist word at her? If she carries on, I would seriously reconsider my child having a relationship with her, because I wouldn't ever want a child of mine to be around someone who has racist views and uses racist language.

@sortingout to answer your question yes I’ve read a little around it as part of my postgrad studies ( I had a post colonialism taught module)

But to repeat myself again, it’s not my area and wasn’t the point of the post. I mentioned it in OP to make the point I don’t consider myself to have suffered racism in the truest sense. Race discrimination and prejudice yes but not pure racism.

[quote Sleeplessem]@sortingout there have been other comments that also talk about critical race theory as another poster just mentioned prejudice +power= racism. Please refer to them.[/quote]
A lot of people of all ethnic backgrounds find CRT divisive and offensive. You seem to be chucking your weight about - I'm an [anonymous] academic - when you must know that a theory is just that and thought changes and evolves. It is not a done and dusted discussion. Especially when so little actual discussion happens.

See dontdivideus.com/who-we-are/

counterweightsupport.com/counterweight-manifesto/

as well as other named people like the headteacher Katharine Birbalsingh who thinks it puts her students down

or Ayaan Hirsi Ali who has been trying to get Robin di Angelo involved in a debate so some of CRT's assertions can be examined but Robin di Angelo won't respond

twitter.com/HPluckrose/status/1400389686342868996

If all this no debate is starting to sound a bit like gender theories - no surprise - combine the two together and you get this

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4266830-Oxfam-training-document-blames-women-for-the-root-causes-of-sexual-violence

where an Oxfam staff training document says “privileged white women” are supporting the root causes of sexual violence by wanting "bad men" imprisoned.

I don't want a bar of this kind of thing, it is not antiracist, not at all. Neither is it pro anybody. No human being is helped a single jot. Except those pinning their academic careers on this stuff.

@InFiveMins she also has truly racist opinions on black people, and as said to other relatives ‘watch out for blacks otw home’ (sorry to anyone offended reading this, it’s not my opinion).

I was there then and went nuts at her and the family and told them it’s disgusting, haram and a major sin (islamically) to have such opinions. I’ve not heard them since but I wouldn’t be so bold as to think me saying this changed a group of Middle Aged folks minds

I'm loving how posters keep trying to derail the post into crying about how it's possible to be racist against white people and OP keeps deftly reminding them that this has already been covered.

Yes, this is appalling behaviour by her. Do you feel like you want to take it further somehow, or is this more of a sanity check?

The context she used it was racist and rude. I know that caste and religion are still very important there. Maybe she feels superior since she managed to move to a western country and had the chance to treat hired help as inferior.
Is she the same religion as you?
She's likely be just as unaccepting if you were from there but a different class and religion than her.

@ChristinaXYZ no I’m not throwing anything around. I’ve said numerous times this isn’t my area, so I’m not an authority but there are interesting resources out there for anyone who is interested. I do have an academic background, but not in race theory or anything of the sort, I read a little bit for a module nearly 10 years ago but discourse has advanced since then. I left academia a while ago and I actually work in a totally different and corporate environment. Which is why I’ve said at least 5 times it’s not my area and I’m probably not explaining anything well but it made sense to me.

I’ve also said about 6/7 times this really wasn’t the point of this post.

@lboogy I am honestly confused as to how people on here want to frame purely descriptive phrases as racist language. It would be like claiming simply saying someone is black or Asian is racist.

But if I (white) called an African-American workman 'black man' instead of his name, I would think that I was being racist. Ditto and Asian heritage workman who was not born here, 'Pakistani man' or 'Indian man' instead of their names. It may be factually correct, but no. Why shouldn't they have the courtesy of being called by their names?

@RantyAnty, same religion but I am viewed as less so because I’m white, probably doesn’t make sense, it’s hard to explain.

I don’t think it’s speaking down to the help, i think some of it is cultural superiority and the rest god only knows x

@AwaAnBileYerHeid

Saying that white people can't experience racism is bullshit. She is a racist and she needs a good bloody talking to.

This ^^^

Saying that white people can’t suffer racism is in itself a racist statement.

[quote Sleeplessem]@ChristinaXYZ no I’m not throwing anything around. I’ve said numerous times this isn’t my area, so I’m not an authority but there are interesting resources out there for anyone who is interested. I do have an academic background, but not in race theory or anything of the sort, I read a little bit for a module nearly 10 years ago but discourse has advanced since then. I left academia a while ago and I actually work in a totally different and corporate environment. Which is why I’ve said at least 5 times it’s not my area and I’m probably not explaining anything well but it made sense to me.

I’ve also said about 6/7 times this really wasn’t the point of this post.[/quote]
Then why say you "understand that white people aren’t victims of racism" in your original post as though it is an undisputed fact. It isn't.

Sorry to be pendantic but gora= white male, gori= white female and goreh/goray= white people. It's not a slur as far as I know because gora refers to the colour white in Hindi/Urdu HOWEVER based on your experiences and how you've been treated, your ILs sound ridiculously bigoted. Your husband is making the same excuses for his mum that some white people make for their grandparents racist attitudes, I.e. 'they're just people of their time/they won't understand or change/ignore it'. He needs to have a word with her and you need to stand up for yourself and hold your own if someone tries to make you think you're a lesser being because of the colour of your skin.

@Doris86 how? I’m white…

Also not the point of this thread. 8th time I’ve said this now lol

I'm loving how posters keep trying to derail the post into crying about how it's possible to be racist against white people

Well that's one of the problems with CRT and redefining the previous meaning of a word. It will inevitably mean that discussions get endlessly derailed from the real issues (not OPs post here, but real life discussions of racism and how to address it) into pointless debates of the meaning of the word 'racism'.

I went to a really interesting conference on how to frame discussions to get people on board and having the conversation you want them to have. You start with establishing shared values. CRT theory and their new definition of racism does exactly the opposite. It starts the conversation with an argument about a word. Its divisive. And its so pointless. As OP pointed out herself, the term 'institutional racism' very well conveys what she wants to communicate (prejudice plus power) and is a well understood and accepted term.

Its like trying to advance women's rights but continually derailing the conversation by your starting point being that men can't experience sexism. Thereby ensuing that all you ever succeed in doing is having endless ' debates' around whether men can experience sexism.

[quote Sleeplessem]@Doris86 how? I’m white…

Also not the point of this thread. 8th time I’ve said this now lol[/quote]
Sorry but if you’re going to make ridiculous statements like that you can’t expect them to go unchallenged.

but I wouldn’t be so bold as to think me saying this changed a group of Middle Aged folks minds

Why do you need to mention that they are middle aged? Do you have a prejudice that middle aged people cannot change their minds? That's actually pretty offensive.

And pretty ' remove the plank from your own eye' from someone who is not engaging in debate or evidence but just tells people that they ' 'need to read the same stuff I have' .

If i opened the door and said oh the pakistani man is here its racist so saying white man and repeatedly referring to someone as that is also racist

YANBU. If it’s said with malice it’s discriminatory, or at the least rude. You wouldn’t refer to someone as ‘ginger person’ or ‘tall man’ or ‘woman’ rather than their name.

And all those concerns about the OP being racist as she says you can’t be racist against white people, it’s hardly an obscure theory if you’ve done any reading around race. And sort of a red herring to the whole issue.

@insertrandomusernamehere that’s pretty much my point, gori etc not strictly offensive or a slur in fact lots of Bollywood films have the lead as gori chiti (excuse spelling) BUT it’s how his family and his mum use those terms exclusively in a derogatory sense, exactly as you said due to bigoted views. Made even worse by the fact that the chap had told her his name several times.

@sortingout you’re funny

Did the builder know what goreh meant?