Disgusted with how MIL spoke to a workman- AIBU?

[Sleeplessem]

So context, MIL doesnt live with DH and I but DH provides for her financially speaking. MIL and DH are Asian (Indian subcontinent) I am white European our DD is very fair (so white passing) MIL doesn’t speak English BUT she understands very basic phrases (think hello, goodbye, my name is etc)

There was a workman doing some work at MILs today that DH had hired. DH gets a call from workman saying that he has introduced himself to MIL several times but she is not calling him by his name, rather she is referring to him as ‘Goreh’ and he’s offended as he’s doing the job for a very good price and has been very careful to make sure she understands what’s going on and is comfortable with a man In her home, yet despite him introducing himself and stating his name she’s been calling him goreh. So he called DH to tell him to tell her to stop or he’ll leave because he doesn’t need it as he’s trying to be helpful. I feel awful for the guy, I’m mortified that she’d treat someone that way.

DH relayed the message but brushed it off as him mum being a bit stupid. I think this is disgusting and it’s purposely talking down to someone who’s doing work in your home.

For context the word goreh means white man. I asked a pakistani friend about it and she was mortified and stated it was really really rude to speak to someone like that. This sort of stuff hits a nerve with me as it is very much how I’m treated by his family. Whilst I understand that white people aren’t victims of racism (I think Akala spoke about it in detail if anyone is interested) the term goreh at least in his family is used in an exclusively derogatory context. Some examples being if someone said you look very goreh today it would be an insult, I’ve been told I have a ‘disgusting gori’ name and family members refused to call me by it, people would stare at me and not let me sit with them at family functions (I’d hear gori, gori and then they’d put their bags on chair so I couldn’t sit there), MIL in particular refused to accept me because I’m ‘gori’ and ‘gori’ have no family values and are all money grabbing etc. So this is how I know, pretty much for certain that goreh/gori is derogatory/ an insult and a slur.

She has a habit of doing really shitty things such as this and gets out of it because she plays dumb. But she’s knows full well that goreh is derogatory and would’ve understood when he told her his name. I’m just mortified and disappointed by her actions yet again, but DH sort of laughs it off.

DH apologised to the work man and made her apologise to so there’s nothing more than can really be done in this situation, so I get that. But this is disgusting behaviour from her right?

Anyway to answer your question there is a similar word in my language which simply Emma’s white person and is not derogatory. However calling someone it in front of their face is defiantly wrong when you know there name.

I would tell her to call people by their name as it is very disrespectful not to when you know their name.

MIL in particular refused to accept me because I’m ‘gori’ and ‘gori’ have no family values and are all money grabbing etc.

No family values and money grabbing, you say? Hmm, does she own a mirror at all....?

Even though the workman probably didn't know what goreh means, he obviously realised that she wasn't calling him by his name - unless his name is Gary and your MIL has a West Midlands accent, maybe....

Whether 'goreh' is an offensive term or not, it IS offensive when you repeatedly address somebody you aren't close to with a general description rather than doing them the basic courtesy of using their own name. That's the entire reason why we have names. At the very least, you'd use something like Sir or Madam.

Also, unless she has very severe learning difficulties, it's disgraceful to have lived in a country for three decades and not become fluent in the language. It must hold you back so terribly, apart from anything else. Wouldn't you just be so utterly mortified to know that 5yo children, who have only lived anywhere for a sixth of the time you've been in the country, still speak the language very well and yet you don't? It must be an act of deliberate defiance not to absorb the language being spoken by everybody around you for such a very long time - talk about spiting yourself, though.

@Vaccine001 why would she feel inferior to white people ? You are projecting.

Goreh is not a racist term it simply means fair.
So when MIL is pointing out goreh dress in a certain way the problem is the actual statement NOT the use of the term goreh. For example she could equally have said something nice like goreh suit brighter/darker colours.

Is this Birmingham...
Experienced repeated racism as a white person there... Oh, and misogyny too (not shaking my hand because I was a woman, ignoring me, etc.)

[quote Sleeplessem]@smallgoon even when the context it has been used in is as in my OP? I think context matters and the familial context gori/ gora etc is used in is negative and derogatory it seems pretty clear cut. So I don’t think I’m conflating anything as I’m very clear how it’s been used in the context of me (all negative btw)

I’d compare it to my mum (who is 100% unequivocally racist. She refers to anyone who is agro carribean as ‘a black’ and often says ‘the blacks are responsible for xyz’ (ridiculous things like criminality) now black in and as of itself isn’t offensive, but it’s how she uses the word and the venom with which she uses it.[/quote]
Context is key, you're absolutely right. I was just highlighting that the word itself was not the equivalent of calling somebody the N word.

My mum was sometimes called a 'gori' (as was I) by members of my father's family. For us it was a term of endearment and I never personally took offense to it. If it were used with the intention to be divisive, as your MIL appears to, I can see why you wouldn't particularly like hearing the word.

@Brainwave89

I do not wish to come over as hyper sensitive, but as someone of south asian heritage, could we please not use the P word even in quoting what others have said. It is every bit as derogatory as the N word which no one hopefully now uses.

Indeed.

"Oh, and misogyny too (not shaking my hand because I was a woman, ignoring me, etc.)"

I've thought a lot about the not shaking hands thing. I can sort of understand a rule about touching the opposite sex and it's the same for women who won't shake men's hands so I don't really think it's misogyny.

I fully get what you mean re racism, and think that arguing it is a derail. I've seen lots of discussion about whether or not white people can truly experience racism in the truest sense, and on the whole the answer seems to be no. They can be discriminated against or experience prejudice but true systemic racism is a no.

Your MIL sounds awful OP, your DH sounds like a good man.

"I’d compare it to my mum (who is 100% unequivocally racist. She refers to anyone who is agro carribean as ‘a black’ and often says ‘the blacks are responsible for xyz’ (ridiculous things like criminality) now black in and as of itself isn’t offensive, but it’s how she uses the word and the venom with which she uses it."

And if she opened the door with "hello black man" as OP's MIL seems to have done..

@Gwenhwyfar

"Oh, and misogyny too (not shaking my hand because I was a woman, ignoring me, etc.)"

I've thought a lot about the not shaking hands thing. I can sort of understand a rule about touching the opposite sex and it's the same for women who won't shake men's hands so I don't really think it's misogyny.

Since covid and the world literally being needed to be taught to wash their hands.

I do not ever wish to shake hands with anyone ever. 🤢

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll, the language is a whole other issue. She never had an education back home, not even primary school so she’s completely illiterate. So that makes formal language learning a problem.

It’s also a great way to manipulate your son

Whilst I understand that white people aren’t victims of racism (I think Akala spoke about it in detail if anyone is interested) the term goreh at least in his family is used in an exclusively derogatory context. Some examples being if someone said you look very goreh today it would be an insult, I’ve been told I have a ‘disgusting gori’ name and family members refused to call me by it, people would stare at me and not let me sit with them at family functions (I’d hear gori, gori and then they’d put their bags on chair so I couldn’t sit there), MIL in particular refused to accept me because I’m ‘gori’ and ‘gori’ have no family values and are all money grabbing etc. So this is how I know, pretty much for certain that goreh/gori is derogatory/ an insult and a slur
All of what you have described is racism against you as a white person. In UK law racism is based on how you treat someone because of their race, regardless of what that race is. I understand some academics have looked to redefine what racism is, and they are entitled to make their case, but they are not reflecting the law. And I suspect the law also reflects the understanding of racism that most people in the UK have.

@YawnyOwl yes on how white people get treated as inferior but on the hand shaking thing I wouldn’t take that personally unless it was done by women (then it’s gross) it’s a religious thing (orthodox Jewish and Muslim) to not touch a woman who is not related to you (mum, sister, wife etc ) xx

That’s pretty unfair @WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll. There are some cultures that quite deliberately prevent women from learning any language other than their mother tongue. Cultures in which women are kept illiterate in their own language.

Of course that may not be the case for OP’s mil but your judgement is very harsh.

@Gwenhwyfar

"Oh, and misogyny too (not shaking my hand because I was a woman, ignoring me, etc.)"

I've thought a lot about the not shaking hands thing. I can sort of understand a rule about touching the opposite sex and it's the same for women who won't shake men's hands so I don't really think it's misogyny.

No, in combination with the other behaviours it was misogyny. I agree though if that had been the only thing I could sort of let it go

@SallyCinnabon I’m black and I say they can’t. You can’t state your race and make yourself the decider of things like this just because your half non-white. Thanks.

Where did Sally claim to speak on behalf of all non-white people? She gave her personal context and then her personal opinion.

I'm white, so you may well believe that I have no right to an opinion in it at all, but although there's a huge overall imbalance between the privileged and less privileged in racist speech and actions in general - currently and historically - how can the very dictionary definition of what racist is never apply to a white person? It's like saying that, just because the vast, vast majority of victims of DV are women, a man could therefore never be a victim.

@FlyingLoo but that’s not how it’s used by her, the clothes is like ‘oh gori are promiscuous look at how that woman is dressed it’s shameful’ that is problematic and context is key. I also think how’s its been used towards me is pretty prejudice and mean, so I’m pretty sure that’s how it was used to refer to the repair guy.

I dont know what really is the point of this post unless its to say your MIL is racist and you dont know what you should do?
Well for starters she is unlikely to change. You and DH can only control your own actions towards her and her behaviours. Sounds like your DH will put up with it, so if you cant, then stop all interaction with her.

She most definitely understands her actions, even though she doesnt speak English (have met women like her in my extended family, but most of that generation have now died)

[quote Enid9]@Sleeplessem

Whilst I understand that white people aren’t victims of racism

I visited Western Africa a few years ago now.

I was repeatedly called Toubab by several of the locals, which means “white person”.
I absolutely thought it was racist, just as it would
be if I were to refer to the locals as “black man”
or some other derogatory term with the same meaning![/quote]
You have no clue what you're talking about. I'm African and I know many terms for white people across lots of counties. Terms and words for white people are almost exclusively descriptive. We don't have racist terms for white people because they were always in power.

How can you go to an African country and simply be blind to your privilege and claim racism because the people call you white. You have the freedom to go there penniless but racism and the notion of boarders prevents them from coming to England without either being extremely wealthy or going through illegal means.

Please don't go back since you're so desperate to be a victim of racism.

Anyway OP, you're right to be offended. I'm shocked the family treated you in such an appalling manor and he frankly needs to have a word with his mother. She cannot continue to plead ignorance to her own prejudice.

@Daftpink123 no real point in the grand sense as man as been apologised to and paid so that’s that.

I just wanted to check if my visceral reaction of being disgusted (again) by her behaviour was measured and appropriate. I’ve always kept an eye on anything she says to DD but now even more so.

@sleeplessem yes her behaviour is disgusting. I wouldnt put up with it especially as I'd be worried about my child seeing it and thinking its acceptable. I have these type of women in my family. They are very clever, can be very manipulative and emotionally guilt their sons into continually doing things for them. The sons often know exactly what their mothers are like, but for peace and to keep her happy, they do as they are told.
You may be a priority for DH but you are going to have to put up with this MIL behaviour for the rest of her life unless you stop all interaction with her. In old age, it becomes hell when their needs just amplify and get out of hand- seen it first hand.

@lboogy I am honestly confused as to how people on here want to frame purely descriptive phrases as racist language. It would be like claiming simply saying someone is black or Asian is racist. There are descriptive words for white propel in almost every language because white people colonised almost every country. If they use the word to say something bad about you then it’s a problem.

Nothing wrong with saying ‘Oh ask the black women for a pen’. Obviously wrong to say’That women is black so she steals.’

Think most of these people have never experienced actual racism so won’t to co opt it anyway they can.

the language is a whole other issue. She never had an education back home, not even primary school so she’s completely illiterate. So that makes formal language learning a problem.

So does she never communicate directly with anybody who doesn't speak her (in the UK) minority language? I understand the lack of education issue, but I've known people who are completely unable to read or write or cope with any kind of basic academic/scholastic situation; but they've all still been able to communicate perfectly well in the local language, even though they don't have a particularly rich vocabulary.

That’s pretty unfair @WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll. There are some cultures that quite deliberately prevent women from learning any language other than their mother tongue. Cultures in which women are kept illiterate in their own language.

Of course that may not be the case for OP’s mil but your judgement is very harsh.

In that case, I still say it's a disgrace, but the disgrace is then on the part of the abusers. Sorry if that is considered culturally insensitive, but I do believe that deliberately preventing somebody from learning to be able to communicate properly in the country where they live - and have done for many, many years - IS abuse. In fact, I would make it a crime, along with other methods of abusive and controlling behaviour.

I'm still amazed, though - does she not have a TV or access to the internet? Does she never have to interact with anybody who doesn't speak her language? Did she never do any of the school runs or communications with the school when her child(ren) was/were young?

It seems odd to me that somebody so patriarchal as to insist that his wife not learn the language of her long-term home country would nevertheless be the kind of man who would cheerfully take on all of the school-related admin that so often falls to mums, even in less blatantly sexist cultures.

@cinammonbuns you're right: it's because they've never experienced actual racism. Someone hurting your feelings by calling you white is not the same as being denied jobs, promotions, housing, police brutality etc and all the systems of oppression.