AIBU to let my boyfriend and his daughter sleep over

[FeelingUnsureNow]

Just that really. Been seeing bf for 8 months. Because of our jobs and distance, we only see each other once or twice a week and we are really great together. My 16 year old son is cool with sleepovers, his 12 year old is cool with it but my 14 year old daughter is not happy. She likes him, is indifferent to his daughter and doesn't want them to sleepover because she feels like it's an invasion of her space. Fair call, I think but not sure how to tell him without offending. I'm not sure if I'm being unreasonable for letting them stay. Be kind please. Just trying to get perspective and do the right thing.

And no, I am not telling people to get a man to be happy but for me, meeting him has been good for everyone. I'm a much better parent when I'm not engulfed with grief.

This is concerning though. I'm not being unkind, really, but there is an infinite universe between being with a man and being engulfed in grief. I hope you healed properly from your horrible relationship, before you entered this one. It's not normal to be in grief once you're over someone and meeting someone new, being happy single first should be a happy situation!

And if her daughter claims to never feel comfortable with it? The tone of the vast majority of the comments on this thread is very much in favour of mummy martyrdom. Where do you draw the line, if you have no time for it?

Claims? Who knows how her daughter feels. But many of us who have been in that situation didn't just "claim" to feel uncomfortable with it.

I would draw the line at the point that on less than 4 years she'll be 18 and an adult (whether living at home or not - I'd still have regard for her wishes/ concerns to an extent but at that age she can choose to live there or not. At 14 she can't, realistically). Until then is it so hard to have dates at neutral venues, stay in hotels, go to his house etc? It's really not such a drama as you're making out.

From reading your OP it's not clear whether you are reluctant to allow him to stay because your daughter isn't keen or because it will be "awkward" to say no to him.

What do you want?

I think either way is reasonable, either have them stay or don't, but let your daughter stay out of the way if she wants, as long as she is polite. But if you would rather not have him stay for that reason then you can say you want to give your children more time and they should understand that.

You won't be able to, because the evidence of harm comes from dysfunctional/disordered families, not a standard family where occasionally the teenager doesn't get their own way.

This teenager has already experienced a dysfunctional/disordered family. Her DM, the OP, has moved the DC out of it. We have no idea when or how much they were exposed to but we do know that the DD continues to be impacted by her own DF.

At best she will have experienced emotional harm which will have impacted her emotional well-being and is currently in a more secure place where this is being restored and recovered now that her parents live apart.

At worst this vulnerability and any progress to date becomes compromised in these critical teenage years.

The DD 14 is clingy - which indicates she needs some further emotional investment by her DM. This doesn’t mean the DM can’t have a BF - it just means the pace and priorities need looking at IMHO.

@aSofaNearYou

She's mentioned that a couple of times, but it also surely goes without saying that she wants him to stay because she is in a happy relationship with him. I think it's a bit misleading to claim she's doing it just to keep the man happy.

And if her daughter claims to never feel comfortable with it? The tone of the vast majority of the comments on this thread is very much in favour of mummy martyrdom. Where do you draw the line, if you have no time for it?

I draw the line at pressing ahead with overnight visits with a relatively new man on the scene when one’s 14 year old daughter has said she isn’t comfortable with it.

I didn’t say it’s the only thing OP cares about. I know it isn’t! But it’s telling that it was the main reason she mentioned for feeling hesitant in responding appropriately to what her daughter had said.

I’m not being harsh on @FeelingUnsureNow at all, btw. I understand how nice it is to be in a relationship with a lovely man, especially after a shit relationship. I totally understand that OP wishes they could easily spend more time together. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with sex and wanting lots of it when you fancy someone, either. So this is not judgy in any way. I’m simply saying that sometimes, when you have children, you do need to put them first. And in practice, this is a prime example of that! This is a crucial time for young women to receive messages that their voices matter, that their feelings around themselves and their personal space matter, and that their safety in speaking out when situations make them uncomfortable will be taken seriously by those who love them and whom they look to to properly protect them.

@PolkadotFlamingos

The tone of the vast majority of the comments on this thread is very much in favour of mummy martyrdom. Where do you draw the line, if you have no time for it?

Where? I, and others, specifically said that was a bad thing. Who was posting in favour of martyrdom?

Well you've SAID you are against it, certainly....

My point is being conflated at this point tbh. My point was that teaching young girls to martyr themselves and that it is unacceptable to think about themselves when they have kids can be just as toxic as teaching them to prioritise men's feelings, and that sentiment is rife on MN. There are a lot of people on this thread blatantly against her ever being able to have her partner stay over. Who think and say derogatory things about mum's "just thinking about their sex life" when they try and have a romantic relationship in their life. To me, that is martyrdom, and advocating to it. Hence I asked (a different poster, not you) where they draw the line, and spoke of the elusive middle ground.

Until then is it so hard to have dates at neutral venues, stay in hotels, go to his house etc? confused It's really not such a drama as you're making out.
Well yes it is pretty hard when OP has her kids 100% of the time and he has his whenever he isn't working.

You are doing your best to paint OP as a selfish uncaring mother when the reality is so far from that based on what she said

Claims?  Who knows how her daughter feels. But many of us who have been in that situation didn't just "claim" to feel uncomfortable with it. I would draw the line at the point that on less than 4 years she'll be 18 and an adult (whether living at home or not - I'd still have regard for her wishes/ concerns to an extent but at that age she can choose to live there or not. At 14 she can't, realistically). Until then is it so hard to have dates at neutral venues, stay in hotels, go to his house etc?  It's really not such a drama as you're making out.

Yes, claims, because sometimes when a child objects to this it is because they feel uncomfortable, and other times it's because they just don't like it. So there are scenarios where a child will tell their parent they don't want them to be in a relationship, and the parent will have to decide whether to respect/indulge that or not. My comment was hypothetical, not specific to the here and now.

I'm not making out anything is a drama. I have made one point on this thread and it was a general one that was not overly linked to OP specifically. Perhaps you are confusing me for other posters.

YOU are her role model OP - 24/7/365.

She will have learnt not to support a man who doesn’t work - to up and leave (as you did).

She will have learnt that you can recover from the grief of a failed RS through therapy as you have.

She will have learnt that you can tentatively trust and find happiness in a RS again - as you have.

She can also learn that she can voice her feelings and needs, that they are valid and will be listened to and understood. If you can show some empathy - really listen and try to walk in her shoes / see it from her perspective you will give her important reassurance.

If these needs are fully acted on (for now) or a compromise negotiated or totally ignored is stage two.

“His last relationship was abusive (to him) and he's a sensitive soul.”

It don’t think 8mths is long enough. Couldn’t he stay in a B&b and come over?

Not all ‘sensitive’ souls are not abusers themselves. Of course I am not saying he is, but there is a sort of abusiveness that can be difficult to spot and you need much longer to know him before deeply involving your children.

[quote Ninkanink]@aSofaNearYou

She's mentioned that a couple of times, but it also surely goes without saying that she wants him to stay because she is in a happy relationship with him. I think it's a bit misleading to claim she's doing it just to keep the man happy.

And if her daughter claims to never feel comfortable with it? The tone of the vast majority of the comments on this thread is very much in favour of mummy martyrdom. Where do you draw the line, if you have no time for it?

I draw the line at pressing ahead with overnight visits with a relatively new man on the scene when one’s 14 year old daughter has said she isn’t comfortable with it.

I didn’t say it’s the only thing OP cares about. I know it isn’t! But it’s telling that it was the main reason she mentioned for feeling hesitant in responding appropriately to what her daughter had said.

I’m not being harsh on @FeelingUnsureNow at all, btw. I understand how nice it is to be in a relationship with a lovely man, especially after a shit relationship. I totally understand that OP wishes they could easily spend more time together. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with sex and wanting lots of it when you fancy someone, either. So this is not judgy in any way. I’m simply saying that sometimes, when you have children, you do need to put them first. And in practice, this is a prime example of that! This is a crucial time for young women to receive messages that their voices matter, that their feelings around themselves and their personal space matter, and that their safety in speaking out when situations make them uncomfortable will be taken seriously by those who love them and whom they look to to properly protect them.[/quote]
Exactly this. Thank you for putting it so brilliantly.

My later teens and twenties were a case study in what happens when young women do not get that. And it's not something I think any parent would want for their child, when the alternative is a mild inconvenience.

My point was that teaching young girls to martyr themselves and that it is unacceptable to think about themselves when they have kids can be just as toxic as teaching them to prioritise men's feelings, and that sentiment is rife on MN.

But this is the exact opposite of what posters have been saying. Teaching the DD that her boundaries should be respected and she shouldn't just put up with this to please the boyfriend when it makes her uncomfortable is the total opposite of what you're describing. If her mother says no to him staying there, what she is modelling is:

a) good parenting: putting your child's needs first; and

b) that the daughter's boundaries should be respected. If her own family won't respect them do you really think she'll grow up expecting other people to? She needs to know that how she feels about this in her own home takes precedence over how a man who doesn't live there might feel about the minor inconvenience of not sleeping over so he can drink while watching football.

Honestly, this is mind boggling.

@QuentinBunbury

Until then is it so hard to have dates at neutral venues, stay in hotels, go to his house etc? confused It's really not such a drama as you're making out. Well yes it is pretty hard when OP has her kids 100% of the time and he has his whenever he isn't working.

You are doing your best to paint OP as a selfish uncaring mother when the reality is so far from that based on what she said

I have my kids here 100% of the time. Presumably they both have the ability to hire babysitters, like all other adults.

@aSofaNearYou

Claims?  Who knows how her daughter feels. But many of us who have been in that situation didn't just "claim" to feel uncomfortable with it. I would draw the line at the point that on less than 4 years she'll be 18 and an adult (whether living at home or not - I'd still have regard for her wishes/ concerns to an extent but at that age she can choose to live there or not. At 14 she can't, realistically). Until then is it so hard to have dates at neutral venues, stay in hotels, go to his house etc?  It's really not such a drama as you're making out.

Yes, claims, because sometimes when a child objects to this it is because they feel uncomfortable, and other times it's because they just don't like it. So there are scenarios where a child will tell their parent they don't want them to be in a relationship, and the parent will have to decide whether to respect/indulge that or not. My comment was hypothetical, not specific to the here and now.

I'm not making out anything is a drama. I have made one point on this thread and it was a general one that was not overly linked to OP specifically. Perhaps you are confusing me for other posters.

Nobody has suggested a parent should "indulge" a child who says they want the parent not to have any relationships. Nobody on this thread has said or implied this unless I've missed something?

If they're uncomfortable with that then talking/ counselling (if talking within the family is ineffective) is the best option.

But none of this was about a child not wanting their parent to have a relationship. The OP has specifically stated her daughter has said she's happy that her mother is seeing this man as it seems to make her mother happy! She just doesn't feel comfortable with him staying in her home, which is entirely understandable and reasonable. She's 14. Come on. Who would do that to a 14 year old knowing they felt like that?

@PolkadotFlamingos, both pov are valid Imo.

So the mother saying NO to the bf shows she can ‘stand up’ to a man/partner
And at the same time
The OP following the dd lead blindly wo questioning her is actually showing the dd that her mum is unable to establish boundaries with her.

The solution is in between.
It’s NOT automatically saying to NO to have a partner over because the dd is grumpy about it.
It’s also NOT automatically dismissing the dd on the grounds that adults are adults and can do whatever they want.

Hence I asked (a different poster, not you) where they draw the line, and spoke of the elusive middle ground.

Perhaps the middle ground is somewhere closer to what the vast majority of posters have said, and further from what you and a small number of posters seem determined to believe, than you think. Whatever version of the average you choose to use, you'll get pretty much the same answer in this case.

See also: pretty much all textbooks on child development/ psychology.

[quote KeepingTrack]@PolkadotFlamingos, both pov are valid Imo.

So the mother saying NO to the bf shows she can ‘stand up’ to a man/partner
And at the same time
The OP following the dd lead blindly wo questioning her is actually showing the dd that her mum is unable to establish boundaries with her.

The solution is in between.
It’s NOT automatically saying to NO to have a partner over because the dd is grumpy about it.
It’s also NOT automatically dismissing the dd on the grounds that adults are adults and can do whatever they want.[/quote]
It's not about being grumpy. Some boundaries are absolutes, and should be respected by everyone. Feeling comfortable in your own home in one of them.

I am sure with a teenage DD the OP has many other opportunities to asset her own boundaries!!

is and assert

I should know by now that I can't multi-task!

But this is the exact opposite of what posters have been saying.  Teaching the DD that her boundaries should be respected and she shouldn't just put up with this to please the boyfriend when it makes her uncomfortable is the total opposite of what you're describing. If her mother says no to him staying there, what she is modelling is: a) good parenting: putting your child's needs first; and b) that the daughter's boundaries should be respected. If her own family won't respect them do you really think she'll grow up expecting other people to?  She needs to know that how she feels about this in her own home takes precedence over how a man who doesn't live there might feel about the minor inconvenience of not sleeping over so he can drink while watching football. Honestly, this is mind boggling

What? You seem to be really struggling to understand the very simple point I was making, it's getting painful at this point.

Yes, teaching her that her boundaries should be respected is important. The one, very simple comment I was trying to make is that it is also not a very positive thing to teach her that once you are a parent it is shameful and disgusting for your own needs to come into the equation, especially not with the kind of black and white thinking that most on MN advocate.

Honestly, we are having two different conversations here.

What a lovely post, OP. Just do what feel right for you and your individual circumstances. Only you know if your daughter is really concerned or is just playing up-and teenagers sometimes do,as my daughter age 22 confesses! You’re hardly parading a gang of men through your children’s life. Some people talk about their own teen experiences. FWIW, I lost my mum in my teens, had a sad and bitter old man as a dad and used to dream he would meet a nice woman who would bring some warmth and happiness into our lives. It never happened and he was dead by the time I was 18. I went on to have a lovely life and have lovely, well adjusted young adult children-I’m glad no one ever told me I would have MH problems and unable to deal with things because I had a tough time as a teen or else I might have believed them.

@aSofaNearYou

But this is the exact opposite of what posters have been saying.  Teaching the DD that her boundaries should be respected and she shouldn't just put up with this to please the boyfriend when it makes her uncomfortable is the total opposite of what you're describing. If her mother says no to him staying there, what she is modelling is: a) good parenting: putting your child's needs first; and b) that the daughter's boundaries should be respected. If her own family won't respect them do you really think she'll grow up expecting other people to?  She needs to know that how she feels about this in her own home takes precedence over how a man who doesn't live there might feel about the minor inconvenience of not sleeping over so he can drink while watching football. Honestly, this is mind boggling

What? You seem to be really struggling to understand the very simple point I was making, it's getting painful at this point.

Yes, teaching her that her boundaries should be respected is important. The one, very simple comment I was trying to make is that it is also not a very positive thing to teach her that once you are a parent it is shameful and disgusting for your own needs to come into the equation, especially not with the kind of black and white thinking that most on MN advocate.

Honestly, we are having two different conversations here.

But in what possible way would teaching your child - by doing it - that other people respect the child's boundaries, means that other people don't matter?!

It's teaching the child that parents prioritise their children. It's showing her that she matters. It's giving her self-worth and showing her that she should speak out if something makes her uncomfortable.

Raising a child on your own as a single mother already shows your children that women won't be crapped on and that we can be strong and take no shit. There's no need to bow down to a boyfriend potentially getting his feelings hurt at the expense of the DD for a woman to show she is strong and has her own boundaries. At 14 surely this stage is all about reinforcing the DD's own boundaries and showing her they should be respected, to prepare her for adulthood.

The one, very simple comment I was trying to make is that it is also not a very positive thing to teach her that once you are a parent it is shameful and disgusting for your own needs to come into the equation

Nobody has said that at all. All people have said is that if it's going to be upsetting for children it's perfectly possible to keep your love life and children separate. What's shameful or disgusting about going out for dates and not having your new partner stay in your house with your children?

But in what possible way would teaching your child - by doing it - that other people respect the child's boundaries, means that other people don't matter?! It's teaching the child that parents prioritise their children. It's showing her that she matters. It's giving her self-worth and showing her that she should speak out if something makes her uncomfortable. Raising a child on your own as a single mother already shows your children that women won't be crapped on and that we can be strong and take no shit. There's no need to bow down to a boyfriend potentially getting his feelings hurt at the expense of the DD for a woman to show she is strong and has her own boundaries. At 14 surely this stage is all about reinforcing the DD's own boundaries and showing her they should be respected, to prepare her for adulthood.

I didn't say that. I simply disagree with you that it is a good thing to teach children that parents should always prioritise their children, whatever the cost to themselves and regardless of the nuances of the situation, which is a mentality that is often promoted on MN - with lots of comments like "you put your kids before your sex life", "don't be so selfish" and "no matter what". My opinion draws from the site at large, not just this thread.

I've seen a lot of parents basically give up on themselves once they have kids because they are tripping over themselves to be seen as putting their kids first 100% of the time. It's a big part of the "fashion" in parenting these days. I find it highly toxic, I would hate for it to happen to my daughter. It's something I feel strongly about, and you perhaps do not, hence why you are struggling to understand why I would mention it.

I believe a healthier middle ground is a little of both, respecting the daughter's feelings but also respecting and acknowledging her mother's. I believe it is better to teach children that everyone in the household matters and should be considered, than purely that parents should always prioritise them.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree at this point? It was a throwaway, simple comment I don't have all day to defend on this occasion.

they are tripping over themselves to be seen as putting their kids first 100% of the time. It's a big part of the "fashion" in parenting these days. I find it highly toxic, I would hate for it to happen to my daughter.

This.

@QuentinBunbury

they are tripping over themselves to be seen as putting their kids first 100% of the time. It's a big part of the "fashion" in parenting these days. I find it highly toxic, I would hate for it to happen to my daughter.

This.

What a strange statement. I've always put my DC first and I started parenting 26 years ago! My parents did too and their parenting started 50 years ago! I don't think it's some new 'fashion' at all!