I've had 2 jabs, but I defend to the death your right to decline the vaccine.

[ThatSchoolOfficeLady]

I might put my arguments about science and social responsibility, but I'll listen properly to your counter arguments. It's your body and your choice.

@BonnieDundee

everyone has the right to question why someone has either refused the vaccination or had it

And those people have the right to tell you it's none of your business

It's absolutely bonkers that people cant see what they have become, interfering busibodies who seem to think they can coerce others into a medical procedure . You would have been laughed off this site 2 years ago for suggesting there would be any support for that at all.

And people actually think I should lose my job because I'm not having the vaccine. I work for the NHS and worked all the way through this shitshow last year with very little protection. Now I should lose my job. Thanks for the clapping before you decided I should be sacked. That makes all the difference and makes you a really nice person obviously

I work for the NHS and think that if you have a patient facing role you should lose your job if you are choosing not to be vaccinated. Why should patients be forced to take the risk?

I don't it's the anniversary of d day. Those lads we shit scared of what may happen to them. They had a duty to the world. Not themselves. They weren't selfish.
Every one has to be vaccinated to save the world.

everyone has the right to question why someone has either refused the vaccination or had it

I am pro-vaccine and will post to defend against misinformation and scaremongering but I really don't agree with this. I don't agree with vaccine refusal (medical exemptions aside) but no one has the right to challenge anyone about their medical decisions, diagnosis, or choices and that's across the board. If you think it's OK for people to challenge others about their vaccine status do you think its also OK for pro-life protesters to challenge women outside family planning clinics? For people to challenge someone not wearing a mask even though exemptions exist? For people to challenge someone parking in a blue badge space because they don't look disabled? For population control protesters to challenge people visiting a fertility clinic? Medical information is private, you have no right to ask for it or to challenge the decisions of others.

I don't mind people being allowed to voice that they think I am a killer for not having the vaccine. I want free speech. However it is up to each of us to decide if we tell anyone if we have had the vaccine or not. I don't mind the NHS saying we think if you are fat you are destroying the NHS and that kind of thing, that if you over eat you are taking money from the hands of the poor as so much money is spent in the NHS On dealing with obesity, diabetes etc. However currently we do not ration treatment based on weight or life choices or vaccine choices.

@Toottooot

What’s your take on ‘alternative therapists’ who will no longer see clients who are vaccinated?

Great. I have no reason to want to see pedlars of snake oil such as the willy little white pills with water with 'memory' that are dished out for any range of ailments and as cures for a diverse range of problems.

Is this thread a stealth boast about the number of jabs OP has had?

If so, I'll go next. I've had 24 vaccinations. I like it so much, I pretend to be other people so I can steal their place in the queue. 🥸🥸🥸

I work for the NHS and think that if you have a patient facing role you should lose your job if you are choosing not to be vaccinated. Why should patients be forced to take the risk?

Do you think anyone who doesn't have the flu vaccine should also lose their job?

Completely agree!

I work in healthcare, with extremely vulnerable people, some of my colleagues are vaccinated some aren't. Their body, their choice. Just because they've chosen a profession where they work with vulnerable people doesn't mean they should lose autonomy over their own body or risk losing their job.

@Belladonna12 should NHS workers also be able to refuse to treat patients who haven't been vaccinated then?

What about those who refuse the flu vaccine? I'm vulnerable to flu, I have the jab every year but still end up caring for tens of people who didn't have it because they think it gives you flu, should I refuse to treat them?

[quote EverdeRose]@Belladonna12 should NHS workers also be able to refuse to treat patients who haven't been vaccinated then?

What about those who refuse the flu vaccine? I'm vulnerable to flu, I have the jab every year but still end up caring for tens of people who didn't have it because they think it gives you flu, should I refuse to treat them?[/quote]
NHS staff aren't in the same position as patients . They can find out If a patient has been vaccinated and they can test whether they are Covid positive. Those that are positive are treated separately from those who are negative and staff can protect themselves . Someone who is vulnerable to Covid despite being vaccinated (e.g. if immunosuppressed ) wouldn't be expected to treat them, Patients aren't given that knowledge or the choice.

@EverdeRose

Completely agree!

I work in healthcare, with extremely vulnerable people, some of my colleagues are vaccinated some aren't. Their body, their choice. Just because they've chosen a profession where they work with vulnerable people doesn't mean they should lose autonomy over their own body or risk losing their job.

Do you mean you work with immunosuppressed patients and some of your colleagues aren't vaccinated? I don't know how they live with themselves. How selfish.

@BonnieDundee

I work for the NHS and think that if you have a patient facing role you should lose your job if you are choosing not to be vaccinated. Why should patients be forced to take the risk?

Do you think anyone who doesn't have the flu vaccine should also lose their job?

I think NHS staff should be required to have the flu vaccine.

We also don't know if the virus itself will trigger autoimmune disease in the future. Viruses have been implicated in many autoimmune diseases including type 1 diabetes and it wouldn't be at all surprising if Covid triggered autoimmune conditions.

Well of course, for sure, any number of viruses trigger auto-immune diseases, so I expect Covid can too. Which is why it’s not a stretch to think a Covid vaccine could, as well. It can be hard to decide what to do when it looks like 6 of one, and half a dozen of another.

@Totallydefeated

We also don't know if the virus itself will trigger autoimmune disease in the future. Viruses have been implicated in many autoimmune diseases including type 1 diabetes and it wouldn't be at all surprising if Covid triggered autoimmune conditions.

Well of course, for sure, any number of viruses trigger auto-immune diseases, so I expect Covid can too. Which is why it’s not a stretch to think a Covid vaccine could, as well. It can be hard to decide what to do when it looks like 6 of one, and half a dozen of another.

Unfortunately, Covid is so infectious now it is probably a choice between the vaccine or catching it. I think the vaccine is much less likely to cause it.

Unfortunately, Covid is so infectious now it is probably a choice between the vaccine or catching it. I think the vaccine is much less likely to cause it.

That depends very much where you live and what lifestyle you lead. If you can work from home and you’re in an area where rates are low or its sparsely populated, you’ll be much less likely to catch it than if you live in a city with a high rate of infection and work in a hospital, for example.

@Belladonna12
Yes I do mean that. I'm now required to wear a gown, gloves, visor and mask constantly. It's the same PPE for covid patients as non covid and we've been told our risk of catching covid off a patient if we've got the correct PPE on is basically 0, same for passing it on.
While I don't agree with staff who won't be vaccinated I completely respect that its their right to accept or decline it. Its the precedent it would set if we demanded people were vaccinated to work, what would happen to those who were unable to be vaccinated due to allergies? Where would it end? Could plumbers and hairdresses and teachers then be made to be vaccinated?

@Totallydefeated

Unfortunately, Covid is so infectious now it is probably a choice between the vaccine or catching it. I think the vaccine is much less likely to cause it.

That depends very much where you live and what lifestyle you lead. If you can work from home and you’re in an area where rates are low or its sparsely populated, you’ll be much less likely to catch it than if you live in a city with a high rate of infection and work in a hospital, for example.

I'm not sure you can go on the rates in your area at the moment. We have had lockdowns but that won't continue if vaccination reduces deaths and hospitalisations. They will just let it go through the population eventually and unless you plan to stay indoors you are probably going to catch it as it seems to be extremely infectious.

[quote EverdeRose]@Belladonna12
Yes I do mean that. I'm now required to wear a gown, gloves, visor and mask constantly. It's the same PPE for covid patients as non covid and we've been told our risk of catching covid off a patient if we've got the correct PPE on is basically 0, same for passing it on.
While I don't agree with staff who won't be vaccinated I completely respect that its their right to accept or decline it. Its the precedent it would set if we demanded people were vaccinated to work, what would happen to those who were unable to be vaccinated due to allergies? Where would it end? Could plumbers and hairdresses and teachers then be made to be vaccinated?[/quote]
There is already a precedent for many healthcare professionals to be vaccinated against some infections. e.g. surgeons are vaccinated against hepatitis B. Medical students are required to be vaccinated against a lot of diseases before starting their degrees too.
There isn't anything to stop private companies requiring new staff to be vaccinated and some have already said they will.

As far as I know there's never been a precedent for forcing already employed staff to be vaccinated or getting rid of their jobs. It would be more similar to threatening to fire someone over refusing a flu jab.

Either you believe everyone should have body autonomy or you don't, that includes staff from the NHS front line. You can think they're selfish, foolish, tinfoil headed or anything else, but you can't fire people from job they've done for years because they don't want to be vaccinated.

@EverdeRose I was already employed and had to get a jab to prevent hepatitis.

They will just let it go through the population eventually and unless you plan to stay indoors you are probably going to catch it as it seems to be extremely infectious.

Maybe. Who knows. At the moment, we don’t really know what will happen. Hopefully the Valneva vaccine will be available towards the end of the year and given that that will be a more traditional vaccine, we may find some of those who are reluctant to take the three existing ones, because of the technology, will feel ok to have that one when it’s available. That may change things quite considerably.

@EverdeRose

As far as I know there's never been a precedent for forcing already employed staff to be vaccinated or getting rid of their jobs. It would be more similar to threatening to fire someone over refusing a flu jab.

Either you believe everyone should have body autonomy or you don't, that includes staff from the NHS front line. You can think they're selfish, foolish, tinfoil headed or anything else, but you can't fire people from job they've done for years because they don't want to be vaccinated.

What about the body autonomy of immunosuppressed patients who only want to be treated by people who are not going to infect them with a virus that could kill them? it's not as if patients can ask staff if they have been vaccinated and then ask to be treated by someone else . And you can't seriously believe that wearing a mask and visor will reduce the risk of infecting someone to 0. Nothing will do that but at least if people are vaccinated and wearing masks the risk is very low. Someone who doesn't want the vaccine can choose a different job where they are not working with vulnerable people.

There has been a precedent for employed people having to get jabs. e.g.hepatitis and even if there wasn't it would only be because employees had to be vaccinated before starting the job so there was no need. It's nothing to do with it being considered wrong.

They won't let it just go through the population. That would simply lead to a possible worse variant that evaded the vaccines totally.
When countries vaccination rates reach 80% plus, variants will become far rarer. But it has to happen in other countries too, not just the UK.
If variants become rare, they can be quickly stamped out. We already do this for lots of communicable diseases. Whooping cough for example. A friend and a few others where I live were diagnosed with this a few years ago. They all had to quarantine at home and all close contacts were tested. It stamped it out. But you can only do that if the numbers getting infected are small.