I've had 2 jabs, but I defend to the death your right to decline the vaccine.

[ThatSchoolOfficeLady]

I might put my arguments about science and social responsibility, but I'll listen properly to your counter arguments. It's your body and your choice.

@Spaceprincess meet @FudgeSundae

@twelly

We in this country value freedom - these freedoms have been eroded . We can't now voice opinions for fear of being labelled as bigots and losing our jobs, the next step would be exclusion for not having this vaccine. We need to decide whether this country values freedom or not. Britain is steadily changing and that personally makes me feel sad.

Free speech works two ways though? You can declare you’re not having the vaccine but I’m also allowed to say I think you’re nuts!

Agree I think it works both ways on all accounts

I also think it's everyone's right to refuse the vaccine. But then I think life is one big Darwinian experiment, therefore intentionally non-vaccinated people are helpfully volunteering themselves to be weeded out of the human gene pool.

I also think it's the right of any commercial entity (movie theatres, airlines, gyms, restaurants etc...) to ban any unvaccinated people. You have a right to refuse a vaccine but you don't have a right of entry to a non-publicy owned premises.

everyone has the right to question why someone has either refused the vaccination or had it

And those people have the right to tell you it's none of your business

It's absolutely bonkers that people cant see what they have become, interfering busibodies who seem to think they can coerce others into a medical procedure . You would have been laughed off this site 2 years ago for suggesting there would be any support for that at all.

And people actually think I should lose my job because I'm not having the vaccine. I work for the NHS and worked all the way through this shitshow last year with very little protection. Now I should lose my job. Thanks for the clapping before you decided I should be sacked. That makes all the difference and makes you a really nice person obviously

@spanielstail

If you don't get your vaccine then sign a disclaimer to say you either won't use the NHS if you contract covid or will pay costs back in full.

Where can I do this? Is there a form on the NHS website?

Oh, that is right... you made it up.

tigger1001, if the flu were killing between 3 and 6 million people worldwide in a year, I would then say the flu vaccine should be mandatory for everyone who is eligible to receive it. The Covid 19 pandemic is a global health crisis in a way that the flu has not been in many years. The two are simply not comparable.

**If you don't get your vaccine then sign a disclaimer to say you either won't use the NHS if you contract covid or will pay costs back in full.

Where can I do this? Is there a form on the NHS website?

Oh, that is right... you made it up.**

Excellent idea though, is it not? We offered you a chance to protect yourself, you didn't take it so don't come asking for help .

I had an operation cancelled due to Covid. The idea that that could happen again because there is an unvaccinated person taking up a bed infuriates me.

@spanielstail

**If you don't get your vaccine then sign a disclaimer to say you either won't use the NHS if you contract covid or will pay costs back in full.

Where can I do this? Is there a form on the NHS website?

Oh, that is right... you made it up.**

Excellent idea though, is it not? We offered you a chance to protect yourself, you didn't take it so don't come asking for help .

I had an operation cancelled due to Covid. The idea that that could happen again because there is an unvaccinated person taking up a bed infuriates me.

Not having the vaccine does not mean someone will get Covid, let alone need hospital treatment. The huge majority of people that get Covid do not bother the NHS at all with it.

A lot of reasons that people are admitted to hospital is self-inflicted, or due to not taking proper care of themselves. Should they be denied treatment too? Would you really want to live in a country that has a healthcare system that would do that?

lot of reasons that people are admitted to hospital is self-inflicted, or due to not taking proper care of themselves. Should they be denied treatment too? Would you really want to live in a country that has a healthcare system that would do that?

Actually as it goes I have long suggested we overhaul the NHS and have a system based on personal responsibility. E.g. with smoking and obesity you are offered a 6 month programme to turn your lifestyle around. If you don't then you are not covered on the NHS for illnesses related to your lifestyle. It's working that you can cause your own illness and expect someone else to foot the bill.

I also think you should only have access to a full compliment of NHS services if you are a UK tax payer (unless you have a genuine disability that prevents you from working).

Rather than funded directly from taxation it should've a separate taxation. You can gain reductions through improved health and lifestyle and increase taxation for poor lifestyle choices or become exempt. (As above).

I think people should be better directed to the right place for their treatment e.g. not going to A&E without anything that is either irreparable without medical intervention or life threatening.

I also think there should be a fee for attending the GP e.g. £10 to generate money and stop people wasting appointments.

I think the current socialist system is not fit for purpose and overly costly However this is all a whole other thread.

*it should have

There are very strong views on all sides which I respect. I am choosing not to have the vaccine as is my right. People also have a right not to tell most people who ask them if they have had it. I would quite like to pay 20% less tax and opt out of the NHS but there seems little chance of that (20% of my income tax goes on the NHS)

@spanielstail

**If you don't get your vaccine then sign a disclaimer to say you either won't use the NHS if you contract covid or will pay costs back in full.

Where can I do this? Is there a form on the NHS website?

Oh, that is right... you made it up.**

Excellent idea though, is it not? We offered you a chance to protect yourself, you didn't take it so don't come asking for help .

I had an operation cancelled due to Covid. The idea that that could happen again because there is an unvaccinated person taking up a bed infuriates me.

Lmao no it is not an excellent idea at all. It's a terrible idea. How far do you wish to go with that idea? Smokers banned from the NHS? Drug users? Alcoholics? Lots of sports can be dangerous? Getting in a car is a risk, shall we ban anyone who decides to get in a car? Train journeys/flying in a plane have a small risk of crashing, what about anyone who travels on one? Is it just the NHS or shall we prevent smokers from calling the fire brigade if they're careless and cause a fire? Or people who decide to have bonfires/fireworks? I absolutely do not wish to live in a two tier society, what the are you thinking?

@spanielstail

*lot of reasons that people are admitted to hospital is self-inflicted, or due to not taking proper care of themselves. Should they be denied treatment too? Would you really want to live in a country that has a healthcare system that would do that?*

Actually as it goes I have long suggested we overhaul the NHS and have a system based on personal responsibility. E.g. with smoking and obesity you are offered a 6 month programme to turn your lifestyle around. If you don't then you are not covered on the NHS for illnesses related to your lifestyle. It's working that you can cause your own illness and expect someone else to foot the bill.

I also think you should only have access to a full compliment of NHS services if you are a UK tax payer (unless you have a genuine disability that prevents you from working).

Rather than funded directly from taxation it should've a separate taxation. You can gain reductions through improved health and lifestyle and increase taxation for poor lifestyle choices or become exempt. (As above).

I think people should be better directed to the right place for their treatment e.g. not going to A&E without anything that is either irreparable without medical intervention or life threatening.

I also think there should be a fee for attending the GP e.g. £10 to generate money and stop people wasting appointments.

I think the current socialist system is not fit for purpose and overly costly However this is all a whole other thread.

Well thank god you aren't in charge 🤣

@BonnieDundee

Flu doesn't matter Tigger, only covid matters

Certainly seems that way.

Actually as it goes I have long suggested we overhaul the NHS and have a system based on personal responsibility. E.g. with smoking and obesity you are offered a 6 month programme to turn your lifestyle around. If you don't then you are not covered on the NHS for illnesses related to your lifestyle.

Yes. Perhaps if your hobby is running, you could have six months to give up running, after which you wouldn't be covered for knee injuries.

Anyone who drives a car could be given a six month window to give up driving, after which they'd no longer be covered if they were in a RTA.

Great idea .

I definitely think Covid vaccine refusers should be refused treatment if they get it.

The same goes for drinkers, smokers, people who eat excessive amounts of cake, people who smoke a pipe, people who cycle, people who ski, people who cross the road without looking, people who are injured in car accidents that were their fault, people who wear inappropriate footwear, and people who don’t spend every single minute of every single day in one room and only eat seeds, steamed veg and water.

We can't now voice opinions for fear of being labelled as bigots and losing our jobs

Perhaps if a person doesn't want to be labelled a bigot then they shouldn't express bigoted opinions? There are characteristics which are protected by law and if someone is expressing opinions at work that go against that law then of course they run the risk of being sacked, every company has an equality and diversity policy and I'd expect employees to adhere to it regardless of personal opinion.

@BonnieDundee

everyone has the right to question why someone has either refused the vaccination or had it

And those people have the right to tell you it's none of your business

It's absolutely bonkers that people cant see what they have become, interfering busibodies who seem to think they can coerce others into a medical procedure . You would have been laughed off this site 2 years ago for suggesting there would be any support for that at all.

And people actually think I should lose my job because I'm not having the vaccine. I work for the NHS and worked all the way through this shitshow last year with very little protection. Now I should lose my job. Thanks for the clapping before you decided I should be sacked. That makes all the difference and makes you a really nice person obviously

Totally agree.

Covid really hasn't brought out the best in people. People have been quite vile about vaccines. In March time, if you dared to say you had been invited for your vaccine but it was out with the age rage being vaccinated at that time, there were people who were openly hostile about that, you were accused of jumping the queue or told you were lucky that you had a medical reason why you were more clinically vulnerable to covid which meant you could get your vaccine early.

Now it's jumping on people if they are hesitant, telling them their reason (whatever it may be) isn't good enough to not take it up. That it's ridiculous to worry about side effects and you should just get it done.

I honestly can't believe people think it's ok to demand to know if someone has been vaccinated and if not expect a reason and also feel like they can have an opinion on that reason.

To all those saying people who haven't had both jabs shouldn't be able to do xyz. There are people who have been put in a awful situation with regards to the vaccine. For example my sister who is pro Vax had her first astrazenica a week before they banned it for her age group. She had a horrible week of side effects including a constant headache.

Now she has only two options either go for her second with the risk of a blot clot or other side effects or not have the second at all. No other option as she cannot have another vaccine mixing. Why should she have to explain her unique situation to anyone?

Anyone who drives a car could be given a six month window to give up driving, after which they'd no longer be covered if they were in a RTA.

Illogical argument as the good outweighs the bad. You run and keep fit, maintain your weight and mental health. I have a car as I live over 5 miles from any sort of town and 12 miles from the hospital I work at. Therefore I can only eat and work if I drive.

There isn't an upside to smoking or obesity??

I agree op. Have had both , think that anti vax stuff is generslly bobbins but i think people shouldn't get a hard time for not wanting it.

Illogical argument as the good outweighs the bad.

Not really - even low emission vehicles have a disastrous environmental footprint.

YANBU, I was in favour of it being mandatory at the start but the nastiness and vile attitude displayed by some to people choosing not to have the vaccine has swung me the other way.

For disclosure, I’ve had both doses.

@Totallydefeated

Except that isn't true. Rare, long-term side effect caused by vaccines show up straight away, when there is a delay it's because they are so infrequent that large amounts of data are needed to show correlation.

My point is that autoimmune conditions can take months or years to develop to the point they are symptomatic and can be diagnosed. Eg type 1 diabetes can take years from stage 1, where auto-antibodies are present, through to symptoms and diagnosis. If the vaccine triggers that off in some, we won’t know for some time yet. And that’s assuming there would then be research done to look retrospectively at numbers of auto-immune diagnoses in those vaccinated with specific vaccines and then compared to previous years, or rates of new autoimmune diagnoses in the unvaccinated. Maybe that will be done, maybe it won’t, but if it is it won’t be for some time to come.

Also, my experience of raising concerns about side effects of medication is that it just gets automatically dismissed as ‘coincidence’ unless the exact symptoms are already listed on the insert. So I’m doubtful that the yellow card system picks up everything it should do.

We also don't know if the virus itself will trigger autoimmune disease in the future. Viruses have been implicated in many autoimmune diseases including type 1 diabetes and it wouldn't be at all surprising if Covid triggered autoimmune conditions.