I've had 2 jabs, but I defend to the death your right to decline the vaccine.

[ThatSchoolOfficeLady]

I might put my arguments about science and social responsibility, but I'll listen properly to your counter arguments. It's your body and your choice.

You have the right to decline, but you don't have the right tozero consequencesof declining. If choosing to not get the jab means losing your job and not being able to visit (insert country), tough

So youre saying I should lose my job because I'm not having the vaccine?

Some of the messages here are just so disgusting and judgemental, easy known they're from behind a screen. Someone's CHOICE not to get the vaccine is their business and their right. The only person they are putting at risk is themselves. Don't forget you holier than thou people who have been vaccinated and think you are great can still catch and pass on covid too. There is NO data on long term effects of these vaccines because they are not out long enough to have any and that's a fact.

@Lollipop25

Some of the messages here are just so disgusting and judgemental, easy known they're from behind a screen. Someone's CHOICE not to get the vaccine is their business and their right. The only person they are putting at risk is themselves. Don't forget you holier than thou people who have been vaccinated and think you are great can still catch and pass on covid too. There is NO data on long term effects of these vaccines because they are not out long enough to have any and that's a fact.

The only person they are putting at risk is themselves That's NOT true - at all. RTFT and educate yourself before you start attacking other people.

There is NO data on long term effects of these vaccines because they are not out long enough
Again, you're demonstrating a complete lack of awareness for how vaccines work and interact with the body - which has already been addressed in this thread.

@UnfriendlyFriendly you know something I'm sick to my teeth of the likes of you demonising people for making their own choices. There isn't long term data out don't be so ridiculous. Thalidomide, epilim chrono perfectly safe pregnant women were told, cervical & swine flu vaccines - debilitating side effects - perfectly safe. So if people prefer to wait or not get a vaccine that has not been tested long term, they have every right and you have every right to take what you like. Just stop judging others.

So youre saying I should lose my job because I'm not having the vaccine?

If we are framing it in OP's terms, then freedom of speech is not freedom of consequence.

You are asking for non critism of consequence of your actions, the slippery slope of wanting people sacked for 'freedom of speech' has long passed, it is private companies instilling the values that they deem fit, if that means you lose your job then unfortunetly you have to suck it up and look for another job that doesn't want vacination stats.

I couldn’t get worked about about anyone refusing the vaccine. I‘m too happy about being fully vaccinated to care what others do.

YAWN

Don't forget you holier than thou people who have been vaccinated and think you are great can still catch and pass on covid too

Actually evidence shows that being vaccinated significantly lowers your risk of both catching covid and passing it on.

There is NO data on long term effects of these vaccines because they are not out long enough

I discussed this in my earlier post. Vaccines don't sit around in your system and then suddenly cause issues several years down the line, they simply don't work that way. The vaccine is introduced to your body, primes your immune system to recognise a particular threat, and then dissipates and is no more. Side effects and reactions happen relatively quickly within a few minutes to a few weeks of a vaccine being given

Thalidomide, epilim chrono perfectly safe pregnant women were told

Neither of these are vaccines.

cervical & swine flu vaccines - debilitating side effects - perfectly safe.

The HPV vaccine is safe, as concluded in a 2018 study by the WHO. As for the swine flu vaccine in the 1970s, lessons were learned and this in part is why testing nowadays - almost fifty years later - is more robust. Scientific research and vaccine development has moved on massively since then so events from almost half a century ago aren't particularly relevant.

You are free to argue your point but at least try to be factual.

People can choose not to be vaccinated but once it is available to everyone, they can't expect there to be no consequences. Private companies can employ who they want they want so they can insist on vaccination. They may also not be able to travel abroad in future. I think Covid is so infectious now that if people aren't vaccinated they will acquire immunity by getting it.

'Your body'/life but vulnerable people who cannot have the vaccines' bodies and lives?!

Refusing the vaccine for non-medical reasons is morally wrong.

@BlatantlyNameChanged lowers your risk Doesn't stop you catching it or passing it on. I'm making a point that not everything that we are told is safe IS actually safe eg epilim and thalidomide when pregnant. I personally know more than a few you girls whose lives have dramatically been changed for the worst over the cervical vaccine. Tell those girls it was safe for them. You have absolutely no idea what may come down the line with THIS vaccine. So spout all you like, I don't tell other people not to take it, that's their choice so how about you make decisions about your body and I'll make it about mine.

@emmylousings

Its not morally questionable.

People have the right to make a decision about their health above what is right for others, whether that choice is right or not. If someone makes the decision that the risk of covid is smaller to them than the '1 in a million risk of brain haemorrhage' that is their choice. They have no obligation, legal or moral, to make a different decision.

Once morals come into it then where does it stop? Moral/legal obligation to give blood? Bone marrow? Kidney? To not use nhs services for preventable conditions?

@Anna727b it could then be argued that healthcare for preventable conditions like smoking, obesity, antibiotics for people who dont finish courses, drug relapses, drink drivers, drunks etc are morally wrong because the funding should be used for people with unavoidable conditions only. Once morals come into it there is no longer freedom of choice.

[quote Lollipop25]@UnfriendlyFriendly you know something I'm sick to my teeth of the likes of you demonising people for making their own choices. There isn't long term data out don't be so ridiculous. Thalidomide, epilim chrono perfectly safe pregnant women were told, cervical & swine flu vaccines - debilitating side effects - perfectly safe. So if people prefer to wait or not get a vaccine that has not been tested long term, they have every right and you have every right to take what you like. Just stop judging others. [/quote]
You might want to read what I've actually said instead of spouting more bullshit. I get that you've decided to be angry and offended but I said I agree with OP that everyone has the right to decide whether or not to have the vaccine - I just take umbridge with you make FALSE statements to justify it.

What remains to be seen with the vaccines is any medium to long-term effects in terms of inflammation and auto-immunity, which I would imagine might not be fully clear at the moment, as these conditions can take a while to develop. We may only be able to view data on this some months or even years from now.

I would think pp is referring to the Pandemrix swine flu vaccine of a few years ago - not 50 - that had to be withdrawn because it was found to be causing narcolepsy in a small proportion of recipients. The numbers were so small that, like with AZ, the issue only became apparent once there was a mass rollout.

The likelihood of getting one of these complications is of course very small. However, the consequences can be catastrophic. I know somebody who contracted narcolepsy after swine flu vaccination and her life was devastated by it - losing her successful career, being unable to care for her young child, not being able to have another child as planned, eventually being divorced by her husband. She now lives in poverty able to do very little, her life pretty much ruined.

What people who condemn those who choose not to vaccinate often fail to grasp is that a lot are not choosing not to be vaccinated out of rebelliousness, or some sort of cavalier disregard. They are scared. It can seem a decision that's impossible to get right if you're scared of getting Covid on the one hand, while also scared you'll be one of the unfortunate ones to suffer adverse effects from the vaccine, on the other. Sometimes doing nothing seems like the right thing to do, as at least then you can't blame yourself if it turns out to be the wrong choice.

[quote An0n0n0n]@Anna727b it could then be argued that healthcare for preventable conditions like smoking, obesity, antibiotics for people who dont finish courses, drug relapses, drink drivers, drunks etc are morally wrong because the funding should be used for people with unavoidable conditions only. Once morals come into it there is no longer freedom of choice.[/quote]
Maybe but opting out of the vaccine means accepting that you may pass the virus on to people who might be unable to be vaccinated (or those whose medication (e.g. certain immunosuppressants) and who may die.

I don't think the choice to avoid the vaccine is as complex a decision as whether to continue an addiction (whether that is to food, alcohol or drugs).

@Winter2020

I agree that people choosing not to vaccinate does affect others. If the hospitals are full of people sick with Covid others can't get treatment for their cancer, hip replacement etc. Medics and care staff also have to put themselves through physical and emotional discomfort, and risk of transmission, caring for vaccine refusers. I wouldn't physically force anyone but I think it is an anti-social choice and if you choose not to vaccinate I don't care if you cannot access certain leisure, hospitality, tourism etc. People that cannot medically have the vaccine should not be restricted at all though. If everyone that can have the vaccines does we can protect those that can't by reduced transmission.

Would you consider someone medically Not able to have the vaccine because it’s not informed consent? As the vaccine is new, the person and their doctor doesn’t know what risks are possible?

@Totallydefeated

What remains to be seen with the vaccines is any medium to long-term effects in terms of inflammation and auto-immunity, which I would imagine might not be fully clear at the moment, as these conditions can take a while to develop. We may only be able to view data on this some months or even years from now.

I would think pp is referring to the Pandemrix swine flu vaccine of a few years ago - not 50 - that had to be withdrawn because it was found to be causing narcolepsy in a small proportion of recipients. The numbers were so small that, like with AZ, the issue only became apparent once there was a mass rollout.

The likelihood of getting one of these complications is of course very small. However, the consequences can be catastrophic. I know somebody who contracted narcolepsy after swine flu vaccination and her life was devastated by it - losing her successful career, being unable to care for her young child, not being able to have another child as planned, eventually being divorced by her husband. She now lives in poverty able to do very little, her life pretty much ruined.

What people who condemn those who choose not to vaccinate often fail to grasp is that a lot are not choosing not to be vaccinated out of rebelliousness, or some sort of cavalier disregard. They are scared. It can seem a decision that's impossible to get right if you're scared of getting Covid on the one hand, while also scared you'll be one of the unfortunate ones to suffer adverse effects from the vaccine, on the other. Sometimes doing nothing seems like the right thing to do, as at least then you can't blame yourself if it turns out to be the wrong choice.

You don’t force people to get the flu jab, not smoke, not drink, not drive a car, not be obese etc.... but covid is suddenly everyone needs to conform?

@Totallydefeated sorry I forget to write you make a very good point.

And I meant “people” not you directly

@littlepattilou

YAWN

Someone keeping you up?

So youre saying I should lose my job because I'm not having the vaccine?

If we are framing it in OP's terms, then freedom of speech is not freedom of consequence.

You are asking for non critism of consequence of your actions, the slippery slope of wanting people sacked for 'freedom of speech' has long passed, it is private companies instilling the values that they deem fit, if that means you lose your job then unfortunetly you have to suck it up and look for another job that doesn't want vacination stats.

I don't work for a private company. I work for the NHS and went to work throughout even tho I was terrified in the beginning. Nice to know that you think I should now lose my job goes to prove that the clapping was a steaming pile of shit

From hero to villain in 14 months. Ah well, at least I know where I stand

@BonnieDundee

So youre saying I should lose my job because I'm not having the vaccine?

If we are framing it in OP's terms, then freedom of speech is not freedom of consequence.

You are asking for non critism of consequence of your actions, the slippery slope of wanting people sacked for 'freedom of speech' has long passed, it is private companies instilling the values that they deem fit, if that means you lose your job then unfortunetly you have to suck it up and look for another job that doesn't want vacination stats.

I don't work for a private company. I work for the NHS and went to work throughout even tho I was terrified in the beginning. Nice to know that you think I should now lose my job goes to prove that the clapping was a steaming pile of shit

From hero to villain in 14 months. Ah well, at least I know where I stand

Don’t forgot about the woman who was arrested for fighting for your shocking pay rise - and was arrested. No public support there.... but ok for people to get into large groups to protest over other things.

You don’t force people to get the flu jab, not smoke, not drink, not drive a car, not be obese etc.... but covid is suddenly everyone needs to conform?

Because those things affect the individual, not the wider society. I couldn't care less if my neighbour drinks or smokes. But refusing a vaccine means he might infect other people, including vulnerable populations who can't be vaccinated. It's a choice that has far wider consequences. Social responsibility matters.