I've had 2 jabs, but I defend to the death your right to decline the vaccine.

[ThatSchoolOfficeLady]

I might put my arguments about science and social responsibility, but I'll listen properly to your counter arguments. It's your body and your choice.

Defend to the death is hyperbole. YABU.

I asked the vaccine nurse what the risks were of me contracting a blood clot. She said she wasn't sure. 56 people have now died from blood clots following the AZ vaccine in the UK according to the BBC.

I didn't get a blood clot but I am still waiting for my very late and usually regular period. Apparently menstrual problems/changes are really common after getting the vaccine.

Some people are therefore being understandably cautious.

So does bodily autonomy

So youre saying I should lose my job because I'm not having the vaccine?

If your employer can justify it and chooses to do so, then that is their decision. It's been made clear the bar is set high for telling existing employees "get the vaccine or you're sacked", but not unreachable.

The NHS already requires certain staff to have vaccines, notably Hep B. (Exact policies vary by trust).

Disagree, it shouldn't be an option to decline unless valid, we debated this at my masters placement and yes people have human rights and the right of choice, but when your decision to decline the vaccine would impact others human rights statistically then no you do not have the right to decline.

@astonafar

Defend to the death is hyperbole. YABU.

I agree with you. I think my original strong phrasing has distracted from the point I was trying to make and led a few people down a rabbit hole about free speech. I just meant, not only must people be free to choose, even if I personally disagree with their choice, but disagreements and discussions about vaccination should allow people the space to voice their concerns and be listened to, not to immediately be dismissed, insulted or shouted down. Calling people stupid or ill informed shuts down discussion which is the opposite of what we need to happen.

@Themeparklover

Disagree, it shouldn't be an option to decline unless valid, we debated this at my masters placement and yes people have human rights and the right of choice, but when your decision to decline the vaccine would impact others human rights statistically then no you do not have the right to decline.

The logical extension of this argument is forced vaccination though!

Another person agreeing with you. I had my second dose yesterday, but I strongly disagree with people trying to emotionally blackmail others into having it.

I agree

I’ve had both my vaccines not overly pleased to be told a few weeks ago we shall most probably be having another booster in the autumn (though I did expected a yearly booster)

The guidelines are changing often and the unknown about protection against new variants I can totally understand why people are choosing not to vaccinate. For myself I have positive antibodies (hardly a surprise when working with people abs caring for them who had covid) but wanted to feel safer the fear of becoming very ill frightened me

@Aquafizzle

It honestly doesnt impact those of us who choose to be vaccinated. Those who are not can decide to take the risk of getting COVID or they can shield for the next couple of years ...you do you. At least we can get on with our lives.

You would if you were a patient in a care home/nursing home.Due to medical reasons you can't get vaccinated.

Yet some of your care workers have refused the vaccine..
Still feel the same then?

It this type of ppl listed as being within a high group of ppl refusing vaccines. And they were offered at the start.

@Themeparklover

Disagree, it shouldn't be an option to decline unless valid, we debated this at my masters placement and yes people have human rights and the right of choice, but when your decision to decline the vaccine would impact others human rights statistically then no you do not have the right to decline.

By 'masters placement', do you really mean the pub?

You absolutely can decline the vaccine. Under the human right to private life, we have control over our bodily autonomy... so can make decisions about our health and care. That would include being able to decline a vaccine.

I don’t understand why anyone thinks we can achieve herd immunity with vaccines that don’t provide immunity. They have been shown to reduce severity of illness, but that’s got nothing to do with her immunity. It seems to have become the buzz words of the moment. I suggest you read up on herd immunity and what is necessary to achieve it.

It's this kind of aggression, the lack of civility in the debate, that prompted me to post actually.

That wasn't aggressive or uncivil, it was sarcastic. Using irony to make a point has a long tradition in political speech.

You may not like what PP said but you should be defending their right to say it.

What remains to be seen with the vaccines is any medium to long-term effects in terms of inflammation and auto-immunity, which I would imagine might not be fully clear at the moment, as these conditions can take a while to develop.

Except that isn't true. Rare, long-term side effect caused by vaccines show up straight away, when there is a delay it's because they are so infrequent that large amounts of data are needed to show correlation.

So many of these vaccines have been given, and with such rigorous observation, that we found a rare blood-clotting risk within months of roll-out.

I don't think any vaccine in history has had as much stage 4 (post approval) data as these.

Dramatic titheads saying they'd 'defend to the death your right to...'

No you wouldn't.

You'd harrumph a bit and purse your lips.

@Serpenta

Dramatic titheads saying they'd 'defend to the death your right to...'

No you wouldn't.

You'd harrumph a bit and purse your lips.

It's an expression used to indicate my strength of feelings about living in a a free and open society. Judging by responses it's clearly not a popular expression although it does have a long history of use in this context. I'll accept 'dramatic' but 'tithead', really? Whereabouts does the tit go on the head whilst we're being so literal? 😂

Not even sure why we are debating th
is. Get your vaccine!

@belimoo

Oh bravo. I'm clapping for you. Such a hero freedom fighter.

@donquixotedelamancha look at it again? What does it bring to the discussion in terms of useful information? Political irony or a personal attack designed to make me feel uncomfortable? Bring me your facts and counter-arguments. Have a grown up debate.

OP says "defend to the death", but didn't specify whose death… perhaps not hers, but rather that of some poor sod who needs to rely on the rest of us doing our bit.

@Hsjdb7483939

I defend people’s right to decline the vaccine but I also think that if the consequence of that is you can’t do certain things or go certain places then that should be accepted too

Agreed. Also any health care professional who has refused should not be allowed in a patient-facing role.

look at it again? What does it bring to the discussion in terms of useful information? Political irony or a personal attack designed to make me feel uncomfortable?

Anti-vaxers don't have facts or credible arguments either. In fact I would suggest the comment makes its simple point well, if childishly.

I find it depressing that so many don't know the Voltaire quote but I'm not sure you are using it correctly. It's defending the right to make points you don't like (like the one discussed) but it assumes the right to disagree vehemently and that stupidity has consequences.

I would protest government forcing people to take the vaccine, not that that would happen, but I am allowed to think they are morons for refusing.

Ok so my dilemma is that I have had both jabs and am now interacting with friends and family a bit more. I have ( in their mid 60's) neighbours who declined the jab, but still pop their heads over the fence for a natter or stop for a chat on the driveway. They seem to think it's ok for me to go in for coffee with them, so far I've avoided this. I'd feel dreadful if I inadvertently gave them Covid. Obviously there's no way I'd know it was me, not something they picked up at church or the supermarket etc etc but I feel responsible to try and keep them safe , which is daft as they obviously don't care themselves. Maybe I should start a post, but what do people do in that instance ?

@UnfriendlyFriendly that’s a great description of how the virus moves .

We went to Wembley to watch our football team last week and adhered to all the rules . Two of DS’ (age 19) friends have caught Covid which they think they picked up from watching the game in a crowded pub. A couple of his work colleagues are also isolating and we are not in a high risk area .There is a rush among his friends to get the vaccination ASAP .

[quote Lollipop25]@UnfriendlyFriendly you know something I'm sick to my teeth of the likes of you demonising people for making their own choices. There isn't long term data out don't be so ridiculous. Thalidomide, epilim chrono perfectly safe pregnant women were told, cervical & swine flu vaccines - debilitating side effects - perfectly safe. So if people prefer to wait or not get a vaccine that has not been tested long term, they have every right and you have every right to take what you like. Just stop judging others. [/quote]
Yes make your own choice...but don't think it's like what colour you paint your hallway...

But it HAS consequences... For EVERYONE... It means more variants will gain traction in the community...

Please read some decent science rather than swallow anti vaccs propoganda...
. 2 billion vaccinations have been given...

That's a good sample to get data from...