I've had 2 jabs, but I defend to the death your right to decline the vaccine.

[ThatSchoolOfficeLady]

I might put my arguments about science and social responsibility, but I'll listen properly to your counter arguments. It's your body and your choice.

PS I judge people who refuse the vaccine and then end up clogging up hospitals which then means urgent operations and cancer clinics are cancelled.

This is what vaccine refuses are causing by enacting their 'right to refuse'...

You have the right...

But your actions are NOT free of consequences...

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-bolton-cases-coronavirus-vaccine-b1847653.html

[quote IamtheDevilsAvocado]PS I judge people who refuse the vaccine and then end up clogging up hospitals which then means urgent operations and cancer clinics are cancelled.

This is what vaccine refuses are causing by enacting their 'right to refuse'...

You have the right...

But your actions are NOT free of consequences...

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-bolton-cases-coronavirus-vaccine-b1847653.html[/quote]

Agree with this 100%

Fair enough 🤷‍♀️

I am more concerned about people’s right not to be locked down by their own government.

@annie335 I agree that actions have consequences. I respect the rights of vaccine decliners to do so, but agree that anyone who has a front facing care role with vulnerable unvaccinated people and who cannot be moved to a less dangerous position may have to lose their job. With rights come responsibilities of course. I am curious about how people view secondary school vaccine refusers when the time comes. Should we refuse to allow them into school to protect staff and students who have or have had cancer or auto-immune diseases? Or should all students be entitled to enjoy the social and educational benefits of on-site schooling, regardless of their parents views on the vaccine. I should add, I made sure my children got every vaccine offered at school and silently thanked science and the NHS for the opportunity.

@TooMuchAndNotEnough

You don’t force people to get the flu jab, not smoke, not drink, not drive a car, not be obese etc.... but covid is suddenly everyone needs to conform?

Because those things affect the individual, not the wider society. I couldn't care less if my neighbour drinks or smokes. But refusing a vaccine means he might infect other people, including vulnerable populations who can't be vaccinated. It's a choice that has far wider consequences. Social responsibility matters.

You missed the first one in the post you quoted. Flu vaccine. Flu can kill thousands each year, yet no one demands to know what your flu vaccination status is, or say you should lose your job if you don't get it etc. No one talks about social responsibility for passing on flu.

@callmemaybee

I’m early 20s so haven’t been offered the vaccine yet. However I am a keyworker and could get it through work but I haven’t yet.

I’m not anti-vax at all, but hearing claims that certain vaccine brands could be more potentially harmful to me than COVID itself doesn’t fill me with confidence

Hopefully when my turn comes with the NHS, more research is available so I don’t feel like a guinea pig

The only serious issues have related to Astra Zeneca/Oxford vaccine which the government has stated is not being given to the under 40s. So you have no reason to worry and your risk from covid or long covid are far higher. As others say the world has now vaccinated billions so what numbers are needed for you to think we’re not guinea pigs? Go get your vaccine if you’re a key worker!

Flu doesn't matter Tigger, only covid matters

No one is going to be forced tho.
Unvaccinated people may not be welcome at venues, or on planes or to work with clinically vulnerable people.
Most choices have consequences.

If you don't get your vaccine then sign a disclaimer to say you either won't use the NHS if you contract covid or will pay costs back in full.

I'll be having both jabs but everyone has the right to refuse the vaccination no matter what their reason and everyone has the right to question why someone has either refused the vaccination or had it. It goes both ways

@catx1606

I'll be having both jabs but everyone has the right to refuse the vaccination no matter what their reason and everyone has the right to question why someone has either refused the vaccination or had it. It goes both ways

This exactly. But engaging with each other in a civil way. Being respectful in the discussion. If a someone declines the vaccine having been presented with all the facts, calling them stupid or any other unpleasant name is really not helpful in trying to engage or debate with other decliners going forward. I'm on the fence about secondary students whose parents decline on their behalf. What should the consequences be for that?

I've only ever been called stupid by anti vaxxers so far!

People are refusing because it has no personal benefit for them to have it - just the population as a whole. I would be very interested to see how many people who refuse the vaccine take hormonal contraception that has much higher instances of blood clots (but the trade off of preventing unwanted pregnancy) or Drive (very risky). If people don’t want it, they shouldn’t be allowed to access cinemas, restaurants or other social venues. Entertainment and leisure is not a right. I bet with the risk of losing something that benefits them, they would reconsider their stance.

People who have had the vaccine and are defending others right not to are foolish - they can only decline because you have taken the ‘risk’ of having it. They want all your benefits but without personal ‘risk’. They are using you to protect themselves.

Would those agreeing with the OP still do so if we end up having to be locked down again because people won’t get vaccinated?

Yes... obviously the original quote is about free speech, and that’s a bit different as you can help others by being vaccinated.

Also I hope you also defend my right to say those who decline vaccination (unless on medical advice, obvs) are at best ill informed and at worst extremely dim?

I don’t understand why anyone thinks we can achieve herd immunity with vaccines that don’t provide immunity. They have been shown to reduce severity of illness, but that’s got nothing to do with her immunity.

Firstly, vaccines are very efficacious in preventing you getting Covid.

Secondly, reducing severity of illness is absolutely key as pressure on the health service has been the main reason why we’ve had to have lockdowns. If no one gets severe Covid, then we don’t have anything like the problem we do now.

Everyone should be having the vaccine and that’s the end of that.

We in this country value freedom - these freedoms have been eroded . We can't now voice opinions for fear of being labelled as bigots and losing our jobs, the next step would be exclusion for not having this vaccine. We need to decide whether this country values freedom or not. Britain is steadily changing and that personally makes me feel sad.

Except that isn't true. Rare, long-term side effect caused by vaccines show up straight away, when there is a delay it's because they are so infrequent that large amounts of data are needed to show correlation.

My point is that autoimmune conditions can take months or years to develop to the point they are symptomatic and can be diagnosed. Eg type 1 diabetes can take years from stage 1, where auto-antibodies are present, through to symptoms and diagnosis. If the vaccine triggers that off in some, we won’t know for some time yet. And that’s assuming there would then be research done to look retrospectively at numbers of auto-immune diagnoses in those vaccinated with specific vaccines and then compared to previous years, or rates of new autoimmune diagnoses in the unvaccinated. Maybe that will be done, maybe it won’t, but if it is it won’t be for some time to come.

Also, my experience of raising concerns about side effects of medication is that it just gets automatically dismissed as ‘coincidence’ unless the exact symptoms are already listed on the insert. So I’m doubtful that the yellow card system picks up everything it should do.

@catx1606

I'll be having both jabs but everyone has the right to refuse the vaccination no matter what their reason and everyone has the right to question why someone has either refused the vaccination or had it. It goes both ways

I agree mostly.

If someone is forthcoming about not being vaccinated and why, then yes people can question the decision. But nobody has the right to know someone's vaccine status. You can't just ask someone and expect an answer, if the person doesn't want to share that information.

I've seen that a lot on these types of thread, people saying they don't want to socialise with unvaccinated people. Absolutely their choice to feel that way. Absolutely not their place to demand that friends tell them their vaccine status.

@Themeparklover

Disagree, it shouldn't be an option to decline unless valid, we debated this at my masters placement and yes people have human rights and the right of choice, but when your decision to decline the vaccine would impact others human rights statistically then no you do not have the right to decline.

So you will force people to get vaccinated?

Your body your choice. But being allowed into public events, transport, certain educational settings won’t be your choice if you decide to ignore the scientific evidence and don’t vaccinate.

Social responsibility matters.

It is our social responsibility to oppose any suggestion of forced vaccination or any coercive tactics. I am very much pro vaccine but that doesn't mean I want to live in a society where coercion or forced medical procedures are the norm. That is something that will affect us all..whether we are pro vax or anti, and those who are pushing for it or publicly supporting it, THEY are the selfish ones, not the anti vaxxers.

@Themeparklover

Disagree, it shouldn't be an option to decline unless valid, we debated this at my masters placement and yes people have human rights and the right of choice, but when your decision to decline the vaccine would impact others human rights statistically then no you do not have the right to decline.

Well your decision to publicly call for forced vaccination will impact on every other person in society, even those of us who are pro vaccination. Stop being a selfish hypocrite.