Friend and I not speaking - who should apologise?

[AudacityBaby]

I’ve NC for this but a regular user.

I’m infertile and my friend has a toddler and a baby.

I was complaining to her about a work policy that was introduced in March 2020 that allowed those with caring responsibilities to halve their hours on full pay, whilst expecting those without caring responsibilities to pick up the normal workload and additional work created by COVID for no extra pay. A great policy but a pretty unbalanced impact.

The trade off we were told was that everyone working half hours would have to use their annual leave so that those working overtime could be prioritised for longer periods of rest. The problem is that this wasn’t enforced by the employer and now those who are back are insisting on using their annual leave for large stretches of the summer to cover childcare. Which is fair enough, but once again those without are being told that they’ll need to cover and that their break can be September onwards.

Anyway… I was saying to my friend that I’m knackered now and don’t know whether it’s time to look for another job. She said that in her view people with kids are doing something useful for society and therefore the role of those without is to assist them in doing that. I was surprised and said that I didn’t consider my role in life was to help parents, particularly - I’ll help others of course, that’s part of being in a society, but that’s not my purpose! I have my own things too.

She said that childless people aren’t contributing to society long-term and therefore they should be expected to help out like this in times of crisis and not try and attack parents who are doing the best they can and providing for everyone’s future. She also said it’s anti-feminist to refuse to help out as the COVID burden fell mostly on women with children.

I told her how hurt I was at how she apparently viewed my life and we’re not currently speaking. AIBU to be so upset? Is this just something I should chalk up to everyone having had a horrible year and perhaps saying insensitive things? Or is this a sign that we’ve outgrown each other? We’re not as close as we used to be and maybe we just don’t see things the same way.

And no, this isn’t a reverse - I hate the bloody things!

YABU - friend has a point / you’re being petty and need to just let it g
YANBU - friend was insensitive and should be the first to reach out

I feel like childless people (but women in particular) are often discriminated in this way.
People with kids find it a lot easier to negotiate flexible working and are viewed in a better light when they choose to decline overtime etc I understand that having caring responsibilities does make life an awful lot more complicated and I agree that workplaces should make it as easy as possible for workers to deal with any issues that arise. That being said, it is often to the detriment of those without caring responsibilities. Sometimes it can be pretty tiring when you are the one who is always expected to take on extra work/stay late for that meeting or log in on the weekend when something needs to be looked at.

As for people who don't have children doing 'less for society' that is a load of rubbish and I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who had that view at all.

Your friend is in the wrong.

I’m all for the idea of a community but I’ve yet to see any examples put forth of how parents can play their part - it’s all childless people

Why do you think parents don’t help just as much? They’re more limited by holidays, less able to swap shifts without notice, but all the parents in my team have bent over backwards to help each other (including helping colleagues without children). I’ve swapped shifts to facilitate child-free colleague’s dog having surgery, worked late so she could leave early to get her hair cut, swapped a week of leave (got DH to do childcare that week) when her mum was taken ill and she needed to travel to support her. It’s all about need and priorities. I’ve helped colleagues out numerous times, kids or not! So it’s a bit of kick in the teeth to say all parents take advantage of people who don’t have kids.

Why shouldn’t they be able to take leave during the summer (lovely weather, other people also off etc.) rather than be relegated to September? Childcare fees are extortionate but that’s not the fault or responsibility of childless people!

I didn’t say they shouldn’t take ANY leave in school holidays, I said taking a month off in school holidays, when a mum desperately needs some of that, is selfish. Yes parents plan childcare and cover the expenses of summer camp, but denying a colleague any summer holiday leave with her twins because you want 4 weeks off, I think everyone decided never to help her out again after that.

What’s wrong with July or September if you must have 4 weeks in a row? Or half of August and half of September?

Many bosses have children and don’t look favourably on people who take lots of AL in summer holidays and half terms when they don’t have kids.

Your 'friend' is being a gigantic nob and deeply unfair and insensitive. If she cares about the planet so much, having dc is not a great thing to do. I wouldn't be rushing to forgive her. What a twat.

@IfOnlyOurEyesSawSouls

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Please utilise Watch This Thread instead of taking up a post so rudely with just a . .

@AudacityBaby exactly, why shouldn’t people without children be allowed to be off at summer and Christmas. Maybe l would be allowed half a week as l had IVF twice but it failed . Other people do want to enjoy the nice weather, travel, visit family etc. Where l work it’s first come, first served for leave. A week in august is already half full with annual leave bookings and none of them have children

@RattlesnakesUnfold I’m not saying all parents - I’m talking about my experiences, which are what this thread is about. I’m glad that it goes both ways where you work - albeit that both you and your bosses seem to judge annual leave requests based on personal life circumstances which I find a bit uncomfortable. Very reminiscent of my issue at work, in fact!

What about those people with no kids but whose husband /wife / partner is a teacher and can't take time off in September etc

*:06Snog

I do think that the world of work could be better set up for parents. It's currently very difficult for many working parents to balance working, school pick ups, sick children, holiday care, time off for parents afternoons and events at school etc. I'm sure your friend finds things difficult and especially with the pandemic.*

Agree the pandemic has made life more complicated for most people. That being said, meh. I struggled. My parents struggled. Most of my friends struggled. And none of us got 30 free hours or the more family friendly policies many firms have today

If you worked before you were a parent none of this can be a surprise. Or did you ignore the struggles of your parent co-workers because it didn't affect you?

I had a newly promoted manager once who openly said only parents will be allowed time off at Christmas.

That policy soon changed after I put a call into HR.

He wasn’t even a parent himself so was all a bit weird but he did acknowledge that he had messed up and thought (wrongly) that it was a fair approach

As for your friend being furious if her husband doesn’t get leave. Tough shit. Everyone is entitled to time off when they want as long as they get approval.

So, according to your friends theory, those of us who haven't had kids/can't have kids should suck it up & prop up those that are having them? She sounds an utter delight 🤷🏼‍♀️
I'd suggest a new job & new friends personally 👍🏼

I’m glad that it goes both ways where you work - albeit that both you and your bosses seem to judge annual leave requests based on personal life circumstances which I find a bit uncomfortable. Very reminiscent of my issue at work, in fact!

Bosses have to take personal circumstances into account when approving annual leave but they need to cover the service too. If 2 people apply at the same time, and one has no childcare, it’s likely she’ll get the AL as she has no choice but to stay off work. You can’t leave a young child unattended and sometimes childcare falls through.

Most bosses want to ensure their service is fully staffed. So if the childfree person CAN work those days but prefers not to, and the parent CAN’T, priority for AL would likely go to the parent who cannot come in.

Likewise if a childfree person had an ill family family member or their dog needs surgery, they’ll be prioritised over a parent who wants to spend the half term with their kid but has the option of a childminder or holiday club.

It’s all give and take. Most managers are more concerned they’re covering the service and staffing, less concerned about personal circumstances. And bosses with kids know just how hard it was trying to home school or get a keyworker place whilst working through the pandemic.

@RattlesnakesUnfold You’re kinda proving my point. Under your scenario, a childless person would only get leave during school holidays if they were having some sort of emergency and can’t work, not if they just want the time off then.

By contrast a parent is likely to get given the time off by virtue of having a child. The only example you give of a childless person getting annual leave over a parent is the former can’t work AND the parent has childcare. If the childless person just wanted the leave and the parent didn’t wanna pay for childcare, presumably the parent would get it. Which was your initial point - that the parent should be prioritised because of the cost of childcare.

What annoys childless people is the suggestion that to get time off during the summer months, they need to be having an emergency. You might see it as selfish, but I think it’s equally selfish to suggest that someone’s coworkers shouldn’t have leave if it means a parent has to pay for childcare.

[quote AudacityBaby]@RattlesnakesUnfold You’re kinda proving my point. Under your scenario, a childless person would only get leave during school holidays if they were having some sort of emergency and can’t work, not if they just want the time off then.

By contrast a parent is likely to get given the time off by virtue of having a child. The only example you give of a childless person getting annual leave over a parent is the former can’t work AND the parent has childcare. If the childless person just wanted the leave and the parent didn’t wanna pay for childcare, presumably the parent would get it. Which was your initial point - that the parent should be prioritised because of the cost of childcare.

What annoys childless people is the suggestion that to get time off during the summer months, they need to be having an emergency. You might see it as selfish, but I think it’s equally selfish to suggest that someone’s coworkers shouldn’t have leave if it means a parent has to pay for childcare.[/quote]
All of this.

Next time she asks me to swap shifts so she can take her dog to the vet/go see her mum/attend an appointment I’ll say no

So you’re goi g to spiteful even though it’s nothing actually to do with you?
You don’t know why she needs that month off!
I always both school hols off, my dh, bf and cousin go somewhere with the kids ( two of them only get school hols off) but that’s only my business!
She may have family/friends too see.

What annoys childless people is the suggestion that to get time off during the summer months, they need to be having an emergency. You might see it as selfish, but I think it’s equally selfish to suggest that someone’s coworkers shouldn’t have leave if it means a parent has to pay for childcare

Nobody’s said parents should get automatic priority for having school summer hols off.

I said it’s selfish to book 4 weeks AL if it leaves a mother unable to take any leave over that period to spend time with her child, or forces her to pay thousands in holiday clubs and childminder/nanny fees (eg for twins). Some compassion is involved. If your leave can wait until September and theirs can’t, why cling onto it without any reason?

You have no idea what it’s like trying to juggle a full time job with childcare and school holidays. Maybe judge less and try to understand what it’s like for your colleagues juggling childcare or home schooling through pandemics?

If you want colleagues to support you when you need time off don’t book half terms and holidays off just because you can... then watch parents panic and try to arrange expensive childcare/tag team with partner and grandparents to cover the holidays because you’ve taken the whole lot off.

If you have a reason for wanting school holiday time off eg seeing family with kids that’s fair enough. It’s when people have no reason at all it comes across as spiteful and selfish.

If you do that (without reason) don’t expect colleagues to swap shifts or AL with you in your hours of need!

Bosses have to ensure the team is fully staffed. That often means giving priority to parents requesting leave in school holidays. Maybe those parents had a childcare letdown or covid has closed the holiday club or their partner’s ill and can’t step in.

The world isn’t fair. A fully staffed team is preferable to being ‘fair’ although most bosses try to be as fair as they can.

As for my examples, how is getting a hair cut an emergency or picking up dog from the vet? I’ve stayed late plenty of times so childfree colleagues can leave early. It’s not like there’s some exclusive club where only parents help each other out!

You have no idea what it’s like trying to juggle a full time job with childcare and school holidays

But I do (and several others here) and my family are all in a different country. And I still say you're being unfair.
People have plenty of reasons for wanting holiday when they do and they shouldn't be thinking "oh but poor X, Y & Z might not be able to get childcare"

We spent several years taking 2 non-overlapping weeks in summer then flew to my parents to drop the DCs off with them for a couple of weeks etc. We didn't have a family holiday if more than a week for about 5 years. It's like that sometimes.

@RattlesnakesUnfold You literally said:

“I do think people with nursery and primary aged kids should have priority for AL during school holidays.”

As for the rest:

1. This thread is literally about my experience working vast amounts of unpaid overtime for over a year to accommodate parents. It’s not me that needs to try to understand.

2. I have no idea what it’s like to juggle work and children. I’d love to know, but I can’t -because I’m infertile.

3. The suggestion that I’m not getting flexibility at work from parents because I’m stealing all their annual leave opportunities is really something. My post is about me needing some time off this summer because I’m exhausted. Parent colleagues are opposing that because they don’t want to or can’t use childcare. How does an employer sort that out?

I have teens and I know how hard it was to get back in to the workplace. I think priority should be given to single parents, but it doesn't work like that where I am. we all get holidays to use, there's no ''priority'' given to anybody. First to ask. We usually have a few people who want to be in.

@AudacityBaby If you feel resentful towards your colleagues then this is a bad management issue. i"m sure that's been pointed out already, but if management aren't doing things in such a way that everybody feels that they were treated fairly then where I work that'd be clearly labelled a management problem. Trying to make the issue about parents versus non parents is not going to help solve the issue or make the problem better.

You have a right to expect your management to sort this out though.

@hazandduck

I don’t know how to vote really.

Your friend was obviously unreasonable about the insensitive comments regarding childless people, especially if she knows you’re infertile. But her saying that people with children are ‘being attacked’ makes me think there was more to this for her - has she had a really tough time? A lot of shitty comments about parents being a burden on society? It seems random to say out of the blue, maybe there is more to this? Being locked down with a toddler and baby has been really hard especially trying to juggle work etc. If it was a close friend I wouldn’t just ditch her as others say. I’d try and work out if she was really struggling and be there.

Also when people without kids moan at me about being tired I do struggle sometimes to relate when I’ve been up multiple times in the night and still have to be up and Adam at 6am with the kids. It’s another level of tired. Maybe you said that when she was feeling absolutely on her knees with exhaustion.

Or maybe you two just have too many differences between you now to stay close as friends. She is in the absolute throes right now of parenting when there is so little room or energy for anything else. In a couple of years when she’s out of the fog and they are at school maybe you can be close again.

So the OP should be mindful that her friend MIGHT be struggling and 'be there for her'?

The OP actually IS struggling, told her friend this and was effectively told to sod off.

Why are her friend's feelings important and not the OPs?

I'd say your friend's point that the government didn't do enough to help parents is not unreasonable. And that's probably true even in normal times.

Similarly, your company had good instincts in trying to support parents.

However, supporting parents should not negatively impact other staff and, if it does, those staff should be compensated in some way - additional AL, once off bonuses or whatever.

And that's where your friend is going wrong - she thinks it's up to child-free people to bear the burden which 1. totally ignores that the challenges of this pandemic have been felt by everyone and it's not just parents who have struggled and 2. the total unfairness of this overall.

Of course you should be able to take AL over the summer. Again, it's up to your workplace to have a better policy. Eg a max time period everyone can take or similar.

But I don't think your friend is going to change her mind. At the end of the day, her view is that SHE has personally suffered more than anyone else and that everyone else therefore needs to accommodate whatever she needs. Which is incredibly selfish and demonstrates a complete lack of empathy. I mean, if nothing else, you'd think people could see that all those non=parents who took up the slack are also experiencing massive burnout.

A policy like that is only going to lead to resentment (rightly) from childless people. It's one thing doing it voluntarily (e.g. offering to work Christmas) and one thing to be forced to pick up people with children's slack. And I say that as a mum of 2.

I completely disagree with your friend that only people who have children are worth something in society. Having unprotected sex does not somehow make you better than everyone else! Which is essentially all the 'skills' needed to become a parent! Value is in the individual by their deeds and contributions to society. Simply having a child actually puts you in debt to society for about 18 years till they can contribute more than they take. But thinking like that just pits child free and with child against each other when in fact the world needs diversity.

If you like her reach out to agree to disagree. If you don't then don't.

This thread is literally about my experience working vast amounts of unpaid overtime for over a year to accommodate parents. It’s not me that needs to try to understand

I’ve already said I agree your management had a bizarre and unfair policy. Nobody should be working unpaid overtime to cover others. But you need to take this up with management or HR not blame your colleagues.

I have no idea what it’s like to juggle work and children. I’d love to know, but I can’t -because I’m infertile

I’m sorry about your infertility.
But trying to see what life is like in someone else’s shoes isn’t a bad thing.

The suggestion that I’m not getting flexibility at work from parents because I’m stealing all their annual leave opportunities is really something. My post is about me needing some time off this summer because I’m exhausted. Parent colleagues are opposing that because they don’t want to or can’t use childcare. How does an employer sort that out?

Childcare this summer is uncertain because of covid, the possibility of a third wave and the likelihood holiday clubs will shut if that happens (and may not refund so taking unpaid leave isn’t necessarily an option for parents). Most parents I know try to balance a couple of weeks AL with their partner taking a couple of weeks AL and maybe grandma or holiday club for the last 2 weeks.

If a colleague without any need for AL takes a large chunk of school holidays off (and I include parents who have reliable childcare in this) it means lots of mothers end up taking sick leave or special leave or unpaid because you simply can’t leave a child home alone! There’s a strong push to keep mothers in the workplace and sometimes flexi hours or school holiday AL is the only way to keep a team fully staffed. Managers have a hard job trying to please everyone.

If I had reliable childcare sorted for the 2 weeks AL I’ve booked in August I wouldn’t hesitate to offer that leave to my colleague with twins who can’t get any AL. But it annoys everyone (even the bosses) when someone with no need for AL at that time decides they want a month’s break at a time parents need it and others suffer as a result. School holidays are only 6 weeks, there’s plenty of summer time around this 6 weeks to take a break.

@RattlesnakesUnfold you sound very insincere re infertility issues. Ironically you don’t appear to be trying to put yourself if someone else’s shoes

It’s not your place to decide if someone has “no need for annual leave”, it’s for the individual to decide It’s been a tough year or so for everyone, especially the original poster who has been stitched up by her employer. I’m a manager and lm not annoyed at how most people take their leave. Today l got a request for a weeks leave in August for a member of my team and l will be approving it shortly. She has no children but there’s enough staff to facilitate it and she has enough leave left

@RattlesnakesUnfold why are your bosses unhappy about your colleague taking leave, surely they authorised it?

In the same way that you are telling the OP to be mad at the bosses not the parents, maybe you should be mad at your bosses and not your colleague who has asked for and been approved leave. All this tit for tat about never helping her again is ridiculous

I had three weeks booked last July, obviously cancelled. I am also one of these worthless individuals who has found herself childless through no fault of her own. Parents childcare situations didn’t even come into my head when I was booking leave - it was about aligning dates with the people I was going on holiday with