Friend and I not speaking - who should apologise?

[AudacityBaby]

I’ve NC for this but a regular user.

I’m infertile and my friend has a toddler and a baby.

I was complaining to her about a work policy that was introduced in March 2020 that allowed those with caring responsibilities to halve their hours on full pay, whilst expecting those without caring responsibilities to pick up the normal workload and additional work created by COVID for no extra pay. A great policy but a pretty unbalanced impact.

The trade off we were told was that everyone working half hours would have to use their annual leave so that those working overtime could be prioritised for longer periods of rest. The problem is that this wasn’t enforced by the employer and now those who are back are insisting on using their annual leave for large stretches of the summer to cover childcare. Which is fair enough, but once again those without are being told that they’ll need to cover and that their break can be September onwards.

Anyway… I was saying to my friend that I’m knackered now and don’t know whether it’s time to look for another job. She said that in her view people with kids are doing something useful for society and therefore the role of those without is to assist them in doing that. I was surprised and said that I didn’t consider my role in life was to help parents, particularly - I’ll help others of course, that’s part of being in a society, but that’s not my purpose! I have my own things too.

She said that childless people aren’t contributing to society long-term and therefore they should be expected to help out like this in times of crisis and not try and attack parents who are doing the best they can and providing for everyone’s future. She also said it’s anti-feminist to refuse to help out as the COVID burden fell mostly on women with children.

I told her how hurt I was at how she apparently viewed my life and we’re not currently speaking. AIBU to be so upset? Is this just something I should chalk up to everyone having had a horrible year and perhaps saying insensitive things? Or is this a sign that we’ve outgrown each other? We’re not as close as we used to be and maybe we just don’t see things the same way.

And no, this isn’t a reverse - I hate the bloody things!

YABU - friend has a point / you’re being petty and need to just let it g
YANBU - friend was insensitive and should be the first to reach out

[quote cinammonbuns]**@Peach01* that is exactly the point. Can you not read. It was @RattlesnakesUnfold* who claims she smiles at child free people who are tired because they couldn’t possibly be tired as they don’t have any kids. Ignoring the fact they could have a whole host of illnesses or other caring opportunities that makes them exhausted. Did you even read her comments?[/quote]
Can I read? 🙄 stop with the juvenile goading.

I get it. You did however, give a counter argument making the same point, but in reverse. Which in turn, all of this isn't much different what OPs friend has done.

What I've said is there are various reasons why anyone would need time off, those with children or without. Everyone's situation is different. If anyone who's working to the point of exhaustion in good faith they'll get time off, they'll need a break. It's the fault of the employer. It doesn't mean two groups of women should go against each other in the battle of importance based on if they have a child or not.

@BertramLacey exactly, that's how I felt. Exhaustion is very consuming. Shift work is horrible on the body.

I think your work policy is bonkers and I'd seriously consider looking to move jobs.

Your friend is also bonkers, she's got a very blinkered view and it's quite selfish! Not to mention being very insensitive.

@WooTwo I was using her own argument against her. Apparently people with children never get a break unlike people with disabilities. As if I can put my disability in nursery for the day or give it to my parents to take to the beach.

I have had children but no way would I even want to pick up a friendship again with someone who thought like that.

Basically you're a second class citizen because you don't have DC? Fuck that

There is Zero reason why an employer must take more care of employees with children

There are many reasons. Right from declaration of pregnancy, employment law kicks in and protects pregnant employees against discrimination and dismissal; even pregnancy-related sick leave is separately recorded and cannot trigger an absence policy or go on their record. By law pregnant women are allowed time off for medical appointments and midwife checks. In the pandemic pregnant employees in our trust weren’t allowed to work on covid wards past 24 weeks, they were told to wfh on full pay. Maternity leave is also protected by law. Employers legally can’t discriminate against women for deciding to have a child. Adoption leave is also protected by law.

Flexible working policies for parents differ but most employers realise a lot of their employees are parents, and if they don’t make allowances like wfh and flexi time and dependents leave, they won’t have many staff left!

I agree OPs employer had a bizarre policy and the workload shouldn’t fall on people without children. But she needs to take that up with HR and management not blame the colleagues with kids.

I really think this needs to be revisited with your unions if it's PS.

Hard to believe part of the work force are so passive.

I bet ye would have a tasty case for discrimination with that policy, particularly as it's gone on so long and is continuing into holiday allocation.

What about staff with caring responsibilities to parents etc.?

How to call yourself a narcissist in two paragraphs

😂😂😂
cinnamonbuns is the one who needs ‘reading comprehension’ classes I think. I don’t have the energy to explain to her why her paragraphs about narcissism were so funny and contradictory. I’m sure she’ll work it out if she reads back what she wrote.

Also, can we all be civil please? This will turn into a bun fight if people keep throwing rude accusations and personal attacks around.

What about staff with caring responsibilities to parents etc.?

In public sector I believe this is also covered by dependents leave if the employee is the sole carer. They can apply for flexi hours and wfh and adjustments the same way parents can (actually anyone can apply for that, carer or parent or not).

In the NHS there’s also a special leave policy that can be used if a parent is seriously ill or dies (allowing the employee to spend time with the parent and recover emotionally after a tragedy).

You were the one who said that someone with a disability that they had not disclosed couldn’t possibly be as tired as someone with kids

You misunderstand me. Employees with disabilities are protected by the Equality Act and may have flexi hours, adjustments and wfh to help them stay employed.

I didn’t say they couldn’t possibly be as tired as someone with kids. From personal experience (I have a chronic health condition, plus long covid, a FT job and DC) I find I get no time to rest or relax after work. Because kids are like another job when your shift finishes. Pre kids I used to lie on the sofa after work. That’s nolonger possible.

I’m sure some people manage kids, FT work, disabilities and caring responsibilities really well, but I’m yet to meet one.

She should apologise to you. She is not doing society a favour by increasing the population.

I see no reason why those who don't have children should subsidise those who chose to have them. Her mindset is very entitled.

There are many reasons. Right from declaration of pregnancy, employment law kicks in and protects pregnant employees against discrimination and dismissal; even pregnancy-related sick leave is separately recorded and cannot trigger an absence policy or go on their record. By law pregnant women are allowed time off for medical appointments and midwife checks. In the pandemic pregnant employees in our trust weren’t allowed to work on covid wards past 24 weeks, they were told to wfh on full pay. Maternity leave is also protected by law. Employers legally can’t discriminate against women for deciding to have a child. Adoption leave is also protected by law.

yes @RattlesnakesUnfold that is all true. That is maternity legislation and is to handle the pregnancy and the time immediately after that. You also have the parental leave thing. Where i am each parent is entitled to up to 10 days per child per parent for sick leave when the child is sick.

That is all right and good. But prioritising employees with children (particularly women with children) over those without (or other equally important caring responsiblities) is complete bollocks. By the time you'Re out of maternity leave you should have childcare in place.

It's shit but "parent as though you don't work and work like you're not a parent" is true and will be until men step up and take up their fair share of parenting. And then women with children* will be less discriminated against and workplaces will be more fair and equal.

*and women without children but of childbearing age are discriminated against as though they are about to go off and pop out a few even if they don't want to or can't. And that is shit and treating employees (mostly women) more favourably than everyone else is feeding into that. And the mommy track.

**She's being incredibly unreasonable and should get ahold of herself. She should, as a grown woman, being able to summon enough empathy and insight into the fact that literally EVERYONE has been through a pandemic. Not just her and people like her.

I really thought she'd get a grip and apologise to you, OP. I'm sorry to read that she didn't.**

^This definitely! She’s incredibly self-absorbed and not someone I’d want as a friend quite frankly.

I’m a parent myself (by adoption) but late in life. I don’t consider that I didn’t ‘contribute to society’ before that. If anything, it could be argued that I contributed more before I became a parent.

and management not blame the colleagues with kids

Except that - colleagues with children agreed to the policy that those without caring responsibilities should take the brunt of the work and would have later priority for annual leave once things eased up.

So those without children, including @AudacityBaby stepped up. Of course one does - it’s only human to see that parents were under pressure in the first lock down.

but then those same colleagues with children kicked off when it came for them to do their bit. They are complaining and refusing.

So yes, it’s management’s job to sort it out. But those colleagues with children have behaved badly.

and women without children but of childbearing age are discriminated against as though they are about to go off and pop out a few even if they don't want to or can't.

Indeed. And it adds insult to injury.

I find it odd that your friend thinks having children is the only way to contribute to society? Very odd and dismissive.

Your work have been really poor too. Irrespective of what anyone thinks of the policy, if work had promised/alluded to something for those without children, then they should stick to it.

Except that - colleagues with children agreed to the policy that those without caring responsibilities should take the brunt of the work and would have later priority for annual leave once things eased up

Did they agree or did they just do as their managers instructed? Did they even know how the workload was being covered?

When the schools closed unexpectedly (with no notice) many parents found themselves in a position where they either took unpaid leave to homeschool (if that was allowed) and had difficulties making ends meet, paying their rent and mortgage, using up all their savings... or leaving their jobs in order to homeschool.

Often the lower earner is the woman (kids often set mums back for promotions, career progression etc).

Maybe the company feared employees leaving in droves if they didn’t find a way of supporting parents through the crisis. I agree the company made a bad and unfair decision and hopefully those who did the extra work will be rewarded. But if a large majority are parents, it’s understandable they are now requesting leave during school holidays as there are limited options for holiday care, especially with a third wave on the horizon.

If there's a third wave and holiday care is cancelled then I suspect my employer will either bring back the original policy or prioritise the parents for annual leave.

No progress as yet. There are more parent members than non-parent members, and the union lobbied hard to introduce the policy in the first place, so there's a feeling of being resigned now.

I don't know what parents were told about annual leave prioritisation - we were told it was agreed, which I took to mean that they knew. Parents knew where the work would be going - there's a recruitment freeze due to funding and all the work that could be de-prioritised was (though that wasn't much). We had to deal with COVID work so realistically they were aware that the policy would have an imbalanced impact but that wasn't their problem (which is fair enough, given what they were going through).

have you all stopped working "above and beyond"? how does holiday cover work? do you have to nominate someone or is it just sort of shared out with whoever has capacity?

For eg. Where i work you have to nominate someone, and if they don't agree, your application doesn't even get to a manager for approval. In an old place, you just hoped for the best (and often I'd go above and beyond to give cover to colleagues, and they'd just let my work pile up)

@Brefugee Some have and some haven’t - depends on the team and the number of parents with childcare issues still. I’m trying hard to get my hours down.

Holiday cover is whoever is available and has capacity. It’s not taken into consideration when leave is granted - it’s first come first served.

Well I hope you refuse to do more than your paid hours @AudacityBaby

Another vote for not doing more than your contracted hours. Make it management's problem. It seems lots dont realise that they are paid to manage...

An update on this:

1. work has initiated the same hours-reduction policy as before due to schools starting to become problematic in our area, and confirmed that priority will be given to parents for annual leave during the summer. Some employees have discussed this with our union who are not optimistic of anything changing as there’s nothing in writing from last year, and they’re being lobbied by their parent members. My job hunting continues.

2. Friend and I have called time on our friendship.

A sad update but there we are…

Your friend isba massive fucking bitch!

The work thing is shit and sounds like it is worth looking for other jobs but she is the most unreasonable one here! I have kids so no bias, what a twat!