Friend and I not speaking - who should apologise?

[AudacityBaby]

I’ve NC for this but a regular user.

I’m infertile and my friend has a toddler and a baby.

I was complaining to her about a work policy that was introduced in March 2020 that allowed those with caring responsibilities to halve their hours on full pay, whilst expecting those without caring responsibilities to pick up the normal workload and additional work created by COVID for no extra pay. A great policy but a pretty unbalanced impact.

The trade off we were told was that everyone working half hours would have to use their annual leave so that those working overtime could be prioritised for longer periods of rest. The problem is that this wasn’t enforced by the employer and now those who are back are insisting on using their annual leave for large stretches of the summer to cover childcare. Which is fair enough, but once again those without are being told that they’ll need to cover and that their break can be September onwards.

Anyway… I was saying to my friend that I’m knackered now and don’t know whether it’s time to look for another job. She said that in her view people with kids are doing something useful for society and therefore the role of those without is to assist them in doing that. I was surprised and said that I didn’t consider my role in life was to help parents, particularly - I’ll help others of course, that’s part of being in a society, but that’s not my purpose! I have my own things too.

She said that childless people aren’t contributing to society long-term and therefore they should be expected to help out like this in times of crisis and not try and attack parents who are doing the best they can and providing for everyone’s future. She also said it’s anti-feminist to refuse to help out as the COVID burden fell mostly on women with children.

I told her how hurt I was at how she apparently viewed my life and we’re not currently speaking. AIBU to be so upset? Is this just something I should chalk up to everyone having had a horrible year and perhaps saying insensitive things? Or is this a sign that we’ve outgrown each other? We’re not as close as we used to be and maybe we just don’t see things the same way.

And no, this isn’t a reverse - I hate the bloody things!

YABU - friend has a point / you’re being petty and need to just let it g
YANBU - friend was insensitive and should be the first to reach out

@RattlesnakesUnfold It is not the responsibility of childless staff to refrain from taking annual leave during the summer months because parents "need" it for childcare. It is not the responsibility of childless staff to arrange their working pattern and break times around the childcare arrangements of their colleagues. I do not have children with my colleagues who are parents. I did not commit to working/not working at specific times of the year to accommodate their children.

I will do it when I can. If I am expected to because my status at work is lesser than my colleagues, or because my boss regards me as a tool to work around parental needs - then there's not much I can do about it, but I'll complain about it as much as I like, thank you.

I've spent over one year doing a ton of unpaid additional hours because my employer sees parents' needs as more important than mine. I'm close to burn out. I'm facing being unable to take a break over the summer because once again, parents' needs are more important than mine. If I'm directing my frustration at the wrong people, then fair enough. But by being so angry at your childless colleague, you're doing the exact same thing.

It is not the responsibility of childless staff to refrain from taking annual leave during the summer months because parents "need" it for childcare. It is not the responsibility of childless staff to arrange their working pattern and break times around the childcare arrangements of their colleagues. I do not have children with my colleagues who are parents. I did not commit to working/not working at specific times of the year to accommodate their children.

Exactly. I don’t mean to be harsh here but having children was a choice, those who don’t have children shouldn’t have to work more to compensate others’ choices. We already pay towards them.

@RattlesnakesUnfold I’m also really surprised your workplace allows people to book 4 weeks off in a row! Perhaps that’s the policy that should be looked at again. We had a 2 week max rule (unless you had a special reason like your own wedding) and then it was only 3 weeks in a row.

you sound very insincere re infertility issues. Ironically you don’t appear to be trying to put yourself if someone else’s shoes. It’s not your place to decide if someone has “no need for annual leave”, it’s for the individual to decide

Insincere? What makes you think I lack sincerity, or assume I’ve never had fertility issues myself?

It’s not for the individual to decide: it’s for the manager. You can both apply for leave but may not both get it. If one colleague physically can’t work for a month over summer and one can but wants a break, who do you think the manager will prioritise for leave? It could be childcare issues, an elderly parent unwell, needing to travel to see relatives etc.

Yes many people have had a hard time during the pandemic, but it hit working mothers particularly hard. No school, no childcare, no nurseries. Trying to wfh and home-school at the same time (if your company even allowed wfh). Lots of women I know gave up their jobs or took unpaid leave to cover the time schools and wraparound care were closed.

why are your bosses unhappy about your colleague taking leave, surely they authorised it?

She requested the leave a few days earlier than the colleague with twins. We’re supposed to discuss leave as a team before submitting a request; she skipped this bit so bosses assumed nobody else wanted it.

Once authorised they can’t force her to change it, only ask (and point out the colleague with twins needs a couple of weeks too so could she take some of her leave a few weeks earlier/later?) She refused to change any of it so now she has 4 weeks off in a row in school holidays. I asked her if she was going away or seeing family/friends and she said no she just likes to have a break in summer!

She’s either oblivious that colleague with twins now has to shell out a fortune on holiday clubs for her twins for 6 weeks, or she did it to make a point.

There’s a massive difference between wanting to have a break and/or see family, and not being able to work because your childcare has fallen through or you can’t afford 6 weeks of holiday club. You can’t leave a young child home alone just to ensure your childfree colleagues get their break!

@RattlesnakesUnfold probably because you paid brief lip service to the fertility issues. Then launched into the “putting yourself in someone else’s shoes” spiel. Which realistically is difficult and often painful to do

That isn’t what you said, you acted like it was YOUR decision. But why would 1 person get 4 weeks and the other get none? Surely 2 weeks each is fairer? Last Christmas all 3 people at my level wanted the week between Christmas and New Year off -myself included. Our manager said no, due to the needs of the service so instead we each worked a day each. Problem solved, compromise made and we all got a little of what we wanted

As a manager l try to be as fair as possible. That wouldn’t be Steph getting all her leave requests and Javier getting none. I would try to come up with a compromise

@RattlesnakesUnfold It wasn't hugely smart of your bosses to assume that nobody else would be impacted by a 4 week bout of annual leave during the summer holidays, particularly if they're the type to get annoyed at parents being shafted by selfish childless employees who have the audacity to want to enjoy a bit of the summer weather.

In any case - my point stands. It's not on childless employees to choose their breaks so that parents don't have to pay for holiday clubs.

Your friend has Golden Womb Syndrome, as do a few people on this thread. The main symptom is complete self-absorption - not a great quality in a friend. I'd ditch her.

Your friend is a twat. I have a child and don’t think my life or “contribution to society” is any greater than someone who has not had children. What a backwards way of thinking that is.

Why are her friend's feelings important and not the OPs?

In these sorts of debates, the mother's feelings are always more important. She is always more tired, more exhausted, more lonely - whatever.

I realised that there was no point whatsoever with some friends in even opening up the topic. Even though I was in an exhausting, emotionally demanding 60+ hour a week job, and then went home to - well, nothing, no domestic or emotional support at all - apparently I had an easy life in comparison to some of my friends. I learnt to just smile & nod. And I slowly backed out of some of those friendships. Wrong time, wrong people.

What happens when the childfree colleagues are burned out and end up on sick leave? Those who expect to be prioritised for leave wouldn't have that option. It's a very real risk with the amount of hours that have been expected from a lot of people.

I take the "pandemic affected mums most" with a pinch of salt. This wasn't the case for my workplace or for most of my family and friends. Yes, it affected some mothers more. But by no means all.

The OP sounds as though she has worked her arse off and now deserves a break. It isn't her responsibility to worry about other people's childcare costs or whether they will get time off with their partners.

When you've you've waiting so long for a decent rest, another month is practically unthinkable.

I've said before, I have over 60 days annual leave to take this year. I have taken some in the school holidays. I need a break. There has been some moaning but no one was bothered when I needed support. I am looking forward to enjoying some sun and spending time with family and friends. I refuse to be made to feel guilty.

@IntoAir this reflects my experiences as well. Too many examples e.g. me mentioning l felt ill and tired from fertility drugs, friend states she’s still more tired and has it harder . I mention l feel a bit low from fertility issues so booked a few days out and a weekend away, friend says she would love to have days out / weekends away but has to spend all her money on childcare etc etc etc

@HunterHearstHelmsley Just read your thread. Depressingly similar comments there to here. I’m also disheartened by how many companies have done what ours have done and loaded the work on one group whilst going on about protecting well-being (of the other group). Really depressing stuff, and makes me wary abiyt changing jobs!

I'm 20a decade past all that now, but I found my 40s tough because I think I did want to have a child, but for various reasons, I couldn't ("socially infertile" is the nearest I can define it as).

But .... and this is where I have some sympathy or recognition & empathy - for what underlies the frustration @RattlesnakesUnfold is expressing.

I don't agree with her "parents get priority all the time" attitude.

But

I do think what it shows is just how LITTLE workplaces have changed in the last 100 years to accommodate female bodies and masculine/male life patterns.

Women are supposed to squeeze themselves into a workplace organised around the needs/patterns/life cycle of male bodies. Bodies which don't conceive & bear children, don't menstruate, don't go through the menopause.

In order to get a semblance of equal treatment, women generally have to pretend they are men. Or at least don't have specifically female bodies. If we remind people we're female, we're discriminated against.

It's really sad that it pits woman against woman, as in this thread. We need to remember that Everyone has the right to a domestic, personal, family life

What happens when the childfree colleagues are burned out and end up on sick leave? Those who expect to be prioritised for leave wouldn't have that option. It's a very real risk with the amount of hours that have been expected from a lot of people

Exactly the same as what happens when colleagues with kids get burned out and end up on sick leave. You provide doctors notes and hope you don’t get called in for sickness monitoring.

I don’t think working full time with kids is comparable to working full time without them. You don’t get woken repeatedly in the night by a baby or toddler, aren’t trying to function on 3 hours of sleep, don’t dread calls from school/nursery that your child is ill or hurt and you have to rush off at noon. Parents of young kids who work ft rarely get a break. It’s dashing from work to pick up, feeding them, getting them bathed and settled into bed then you often collapse exhausted as you know you’ll be up several times in the night with the baby, or the toddler having night terrors, or they’re wide awake at 4am so that’s when your day starts too. Then mornings are another rush of breakfast and getting them washed, dressed, brushed, getting yourself showered and dressed, out the door on time laden with book bags and rucksacks and lunchboxes and work stuff. Dropping them off at school or nursery.

Sometimes they suddenly get a fever or throw up so you have to call into work and request emergency leave. No doubt some colleagues think that’s just an excuse!

Then all the admin of trying to arrange holiday clubs and half term cover and tag team leave with your partner. Many couples are lucky to get ANY time with their partner and kid(s) in school holidays.

When schools shut unexpectedly after XMas it left many working parents in crisis! How can you home school when you have to go to work? Even wfh is difficult and painful when you’re trying to watch kids at the same time and play the role of teacher.

So when childfree parents tell me how tired they are I’m afraid I just think ‘you have no idea’ and smile to myself. There’s nothing like being woken every 45 minutes by a fractious baby, then working a long day.

Sometimes I think it would be easier to be a SAHM. At least then I’d be available every time a child gets ill/injured at school, or gets a bug, or needs me for holiday care, rather than hoping I’ll get a couple of weeks AL and find space in a holiday club (even if I have to ring 6 holiday clubs to find a suitable one that caters for the hours I need).

Workplaces do try to make things easier for parents (and i agree it shouldn’t be at the expense of childfree colleagues!)
But things like flexi hours, dependents leave, a boss who understands you NEED some time off in school holidays really help keep women with kids in the workplace.

Those pesky childfree parents.

It shows a serious lack of emotional intelligence and empathy to not realise that children aren't the only things that make people tired. Your life may have been sunshine and roses prior to children but that isn't the case for everyone.

You know what, though? Your childcare issues and tiredness because you have children is absolutely fuck all to do with the company you work for.

I used to be tired because my neighbours dog barked incessantly, and then the cockerls started crowing at 5am and i was on my knees. My boss, rightly, said "you chose to live in the country". It is the same for people with children. And why why why is it always the mums? How about the dads pick up the slack, take one for the family team etc? There is nothing special about being a working mum. All employees should be important to the company, and they should all be treated with respect.

The example of the 4 weeks vacation= I have experienced that only once in a company where you had to fight for the (legally mandated where i am) 2 week vacation (so in Germany you are entitled to at least one 2 week block of vacation a yeer) let alone 3. But one of my team wanted to go to Australia so she asked everyone if they would be ok with her doing that (2 weeks of which were during school holidays, she had no children) and we all said "yep" and so when she went to the bosses and they pushed back, we helped her out and she got it.

where i work now it's even more regimented: we have to requst vacation online, and the first approver is the person who is your back-up while you plan to be away, then your manager. The manager only gets to approve, i your back-up approves. For the first time in my working life i find myself in a team where only one person has a school-age child. It's amazing.

So yes, sympathy for those scrabbling around and shelling out for childcare but really, this cannot be a surprise to you. And if you expected to ALWAYS get your pick of the holidays, that is a shit attitude.

Starting to seriously regret this thread now…

Sorry @RattlesnakesUnfold, you’re quite right, nobody can possibly know tired unless they are a mum. Not people with insomnia, not people processing trauma, not people who’re working double or triple shifts in emergency services, not people who’ve accrued over two months worth of annual leave and flexi through working overtime for over a year - only mums. Righto.

What was your original point? Something about imagining what it’s like to be in other people’s shoes? Hmm…!

Anyway. Totally agree that workplaces need to reflect work/life balance. In my experience, though, the pursuit of flexibility means someone has to bear the brunt of it. Employers need to be mindful of everyone’s wellbeing, not just certain groups.

OP.
You’re not wrong. There are some real knobs on this thread

@AudacityBaby no offence but l can see why you’re regretting it. The blinkered, entitled and oppressed (ok lm joking about that!) are out

Good luck with your work situation and if you decide to look elsewhere hopefully you find somewhere more balanced and considered in their approach. As l said a few pages back where l work being treated like you have, would warrant a grievance against your manager

I'm sorry you 're regretting this thread @AudacityBaby especially when it started as a vent for you, and a sense check.

I really get your frustration & thinking about looking for another job - if you do, be sure to tell your current employers. I find it interesting that often it's the apparently "little" things about a workplace which cause people to leave. I remember I was being headhunted from one job. There were good reasons for me not to move jobs (it was a big geographical move) but one of the reasons I did leave was the totally incompetent and unsupportive way I'd been treated when I had a serious injury which caused a year of disability & chronic pain.

It wasn't about the work aspects of my job or the place that was wooing me - it was about the way they had not cared about me when I needed support to do my job. Not "personal" or domestic support - just assistance to do my job.

Employers should realise it's often the apparently "little" things.

it's a pity you're regretting the thread OP. For me it's been a bit of an eye opener. I keep forgetting that everyone takes 2nd place to Mothers.

you’re quite right, nobody can possibly know tired unless they are a mum. Not people with insomnia, not people processing trauma, not people who’re working double or triple shifts in emergency services, not people who’ve accrued over two months worth of annual leave and flexi through working overtime for over a year - only mums. Righto.

No annual leave and night shifts did it for me. 12-hour shifts, including 18/20 nights, plus going to a day job afterwards. Still, the day job was only part time and I got to sleep in the afternoons so I guess I have no idea what it's actually like to be tired.

Please don't second guess yourself @AudacityBaby

Unfortunately some women think equality for women in the workplace only applies to mothers. You are not wrong. You are not less than. You have every right to stand your ground.

With apologies for the fact that I now sound like someone in the Yorkshire men sketch.