Friend and I not speaking - who should apologise?

[AudacityBaby]

I’ve NC for this but a regular user.

I’m infertile and my friend has a toddler and a baby.

I was complaining to her about a work policy that was introduced in March 2020 that allowed those with caring responsibilities to halve their hours on full pay, whilst expecting those without caring responsibilities to pick up the normal workload and additional work created by COVID for no extra pay. A great policy but a pretty unbalanced impact.

The trade off we were told was that everyone working half hours would have to use their annual leave so that those working overtime could be prioritised for longer periods of rest. The problem is that this wasn’t enforced by the employer and now those who are back are insisting on using their annual leave for large stretches of the summer to cover childcare. Which is fair enough, but once again those without are being told that they’ll need to cover and that their break can be September onwards.

Anyway… I was saying to my friend that I’m knackered now and don’t know whether it’s time to look for another job. She said that in her view people with kids are doing something useful for society and therefore the role of those without is to assist them in doing that. I was surprised and said that I didn’t consider my role in life was to help parents, particularly - I’ll help others of course, that’s part of being in a society, but that’s not my purpose! I have my own things too.

She said that childless people aren’t contributing to society long-term and therefore they should be expected to help out like this in times of crisis and not try and attack parents who are doing the best they can and providing for everyone’s future. She also said it’s anti-feminist to refuse to help out as the COVID burden fell mostly on women with children.

I told her how hurt I was at how she apparently viewed my life and we’re not currently speaking. AIBU to be so upset? Is this just something I should chalk up to everyone having had a horrible year and perhaps saying insensitive things? Or is this a sign that we’ve outgrown each other? We’re not as close as we used to be and maybe we just don’t see things the same way.

And no, this isn’t a reverse - I hate the bloody things!

YABU - friend has a point / you’re being petty and need to just let it g
YANBU - friend was insensitive and should be the first to reach out

I haven’t read the whole thread (p9/11) but saying parents get priority for all of the summer months is wrong. It’s 6 weeks. June and most of July would be free as school holidays generally start around 20th July for state schools.

On the flip side, I would love to be able to take advantage of cheaper holiday time June to early July or September.

For the record, the friend in the OP is out of line.

Sorry @RattlesnakesUnfold, you’re quite right, nobody can possibly know tired unless they are a mum. Not people with insomnia, not people processing trauma, not people who’re working double or triple shifts in emergency services, not people who’ve accrued over two months worth of annual leave and flexi through working overtime for over a year - only mums. Righto.

I didn’t say ONLY mums feel tired, I was trying to explain it’s a different type of relentless exhaustion for some FT working mums, like having 2 jobs and the work doesn’t stop when you get home. I’ve been on both sides. I had infertility problems. Plus insomnia, trauma, triple NHS shifts on the frontline, unpaid overtime etc. Before I had DC I struggled to understand the exhaustion of working mums. DC was unexpected and suddenly I saw the other side.

What was your original point? Something about imagining what it’s like to be in other people’s shoes?

Try to think what your colleagues lives are like, if that’s not too painful. They’re not taking flexi time and wfh to spite you. They’re trying to juggle work with kids which is no easy task. Take it up with HR or management but please don’t blame your colleagues for having kids.

Anyway. Totally agree that workplaces need to reflect work/life balance. In my experience, though, the pursuit of flexibility means someone has to bear the brunt of it. Employers need to be mindful of everyone’s wellbeing, not just certain groups.

Agree. Employers need to look after the wellbeing of all employees; whilst recognising certain groups have different needs. Eg someone with kids and no childcare may have been unable to work on site during lockdown, so granted special leave or wfh, to avoid discriminating against mothers and to retain the workforce. Someone with a disability or health issues may have adaptations to their working hours and they don’t have to tell the team why. Employers don’t want employees leaving in droves, and a policy that doesn’t accommodate childcare needs may have that effect.

Try to think what your colleagues lives are like, if that’s not too painful. They’re not taking flexi time and wfh to spite you. They’re trying to juggle work with kids which is no easy task. Take it up with HR or management but please don’t blame your colleagues for having kids.

Turn it around and think about your older menopausal colleagues with nightsweats and insomnia who are juggling Ft work round caring for an elderly parent. Maybe their spouse is a teacher and can only get time off in school holidays.

Tbh your constant whining about your selfish colleagues makes me wonder if they booked that 4 weeks just to drive a point home?

There is Zero reason why an employer must take more care of employees with children. In fact a lot of us have spent decades fighting to be treated the same as everyone else. To show that we can be mothers and work FT. What you are suggesting leads back to the "mommy track" so you'll have to forgive me when I shout "not in my watch!"

Since we're talking about giving one group of workers preference let's allow the aforementioned menopausal insomniacs a nap break - fully paid - in addition to lunch break. The rest of the team can handle all the incoming work at that time.

What? Unfair? All those years I fought for equal treatment in the workplace for mums wasn't interesting to a the (as yet) child free women. They loved it when they got a fair crack at promotions despite maternity leave and PT hours. You'll thank me when menopause hits you like a freight train.

the pursuit of flexibility means someone has to bear the brunt of it.

I think THIS is the absolutely key point. Companies offering flexibility should not be doing so to the detriment of staff who don't want the same type of flexibility. There needs to be a complete shift in the way organisations work to, yes, adapt for the needs of working parents, mothers in particular, but also to ensure that other staff aren't penalised as a result AND to ensure that other staff are also supported in whatever their particular needs are.

@RattlesnakesUnfold truly the most self-centered and selfish person I have ever come across on a thread. You talk about struggling before kids but it is incomparable to life after kids. Do you perhaps think that someone may have a different experience to you and that their life with their crippling illnesses or caring for their sick mother or partent could never be more stressful than the life of a mother?

That’s your problem, you think being a mother is the hardest job in the world and for some sure it is but for others it isn’t and they are struggling much more than you have or ever will. It’s the mark of a true narcissist to believe no one has it as bad as them.

I have a crippling sleep disorder that makes me exhausted for all hours of the day. It is medical, I’d not get a day of if my mum looks after the kids or I have a child free weekend, it’s biological. I am sorry but my stress and exhaustion trumps yours.

Seems many women’s feminism only extends to others and not women with other caring responsibilities or illness. It’s actually disgusting to read the posts of someone so completely self absorbed.

And the fact that many other people on the thread have tried to help you understand how wrong you are and you still ignore them suggest to me your colleagues was absolutely right in taking their 4 weeks to try and teach you something.

Also @Brefugee is totally right about how all this puts women on the mommy track and reinforces the idea that they will never be as valuable to employers as men but I’m sure you are too ignorant to understand that concept.

@Rattlesnakesunfold You said:

"So when childfree parents tell me how tired they are I’m afraid I just think ‘you have no idea’ and smile to myself. There’s nothing like being woken every 45 minutes by a fractious baby, then working a long day."

I took that to mean that you don't think anyone except mums can experience true tiredness. Tiredness isn't capable of being objectively measured, like blood pressure. You can't possibly know that your experience of being tired trumps everyone else's. It's frustrating to keep having to explain this to someone who keeps telling me to put myself in other people's shoes.

I know that parents of young children can have very tiring, draining lives, with too many competing priorities and little in the way of respite. I also know that they're not doing it out of spite. But - if they are going to insist that having made the choice to enter into that experience, that a childless person should: (a) work longer unpaid hours to support them; (b) arrange their annual leave around them; or (c) not complain about (a) or (b), then I'm going to find that quite irritating. That doesn't mean that I don't have sympathy. It just means that their life choices are not my responsibility. I will help where I can. I worked Christmas last year to help out my colleagues with children, because their kids had had a terrible enough year and a bit of Christmas normality was a big deal for them. But being expected to do that is a whole different ball game.

And on the last para - I think you've slightly misunderstood my point. When I say that employers need to be mindful of everyone's well-being, I mean exactly that. Not just those with caring responsibilities. Not just those with disabilities (though I am one - and I've still been expected to do what I've done this past year). Not just those with childcare needs. Everyone. I'm not convinced that that's possible, right now, because employers in my experience can view those without childcare responsibilities as support staff for those with - because, as you've said throughout the thread, they know that parents can't leave young children home alone and therefore are more at risk of being unable to work than those without young children.

Everyone. I'm not convinced that that's possible, right now, because employers in my experience can view those without childcare responsibilities as support staff for those with - because, as you've said throughout the thread, they know that parents can't leave young children home alone and therefore are more at risk of being unable to work than those without young children.

The next logical step for these employers is not to employ parents of young children...

Has there been any resolution or consensus at your work, OP ?

@RattlesnakesUnfold yep in another comment you say that disabled people should be accommodated without having to reveal their health status to collègues then you say that you smile when you here ‘child free parents’ (I assume you mean people) say they are tired.

Not only does that apply only people with kids can be tired but you so obviously contradict yourself. How do you know the child free person doesn’t have this health condition that you said they should not have to dispose to their colleagues?

@brefugee Nothing so far. Union is involved but the slight wrinkle there is that they supported the work policy in the first place. Nobody's leave requests are being granted yet but management are under a lot of pressure from those with children to confirm asap so that they know if they'll need to find alternative childcare. Those I've spoken to without children are feeling pretty resigned about the whole thing.

Very glad you have a union though.

I hope it all works out. And not least for the parents so they can arrange childcare, but for those of you who picked up the slack in good faith.

Sounds like your workplace have got themself in a right pickle! I can understand the first 6 months there being a bit more understanding for anyone with caring responsibilities but a year on everyone needs a break for their mental health.

OP, your employer is very short sighted. Yes over the last 12 months everyone, and I do mean everyone, has had to work in a non- standard way. But any good grace that people have will soon go, if not already. Sounds like they have got them into a mess and don’t know how to get round it.

Don’t be put off with looking for something else. I doubt many places will prioritise one set of employees over another and if they do I bet they see very high turnover. If you do leave make sure you feedback in any exit interviews that the way you have been treated is pretty shocking

Hope you get the break you deserve

That’s your problem, you think being a mother is the hardest job in the world and for some sure it is but for others it isn’t and they are struggling much more than you have or ever will. It’s the mark of a true narcissist to believe no one has it as bad as them. I have a crippling sleep disorder that makes me exhausted for all hours of the day. It is medical, I’d not get a day of if my mum looks after the kids or I have a child free weekend, it’s biological. I am sorry but my stress and exhaustion trumps yours.

Indeed it is the ‘mark of a true narcissist to believe no one has it as bad as them’!

Claiming your stress and exhaustion trumps mine is a sign of narcissistic personality disorder. You have no idea what my life is like, my job, my health, my sleep, whether I have a ‘crippling sleep disorder’ or chronic pain yet you’re keen to judge and label.

yep in another comment you say that disabled people should be accommodated without having to reveal their health status to collègues then you say that you smile when you here ‘child free parents’ (I assume you mean people) say they are tired. Not only does that apply only people with kids can be tired but you so obviously contradict yourself. How do you know the child free person doesn’t have this health condition that you said they should not have to dispose to their colleagues?

My point was we don’t know. Health and disability is confidential so you don’t know whether a person (parent or not) has a health condition that requires flexi hours or shorter hours or wfh.

Unless you’re a manager or work in occupational health, you won’t know which employees have health conditions. They may choose not to disclose it.

But I do think battling a health condition whilst working full time and parenting young kids is generally more tiring than if you can rest or nap when you get home. If getting home involves school/nursery pick ups, cooking, bath and bedtime routines there’s little opportunity to rest.

I am sorry but my stress and exhaustion trumps yours.

That's quite a statement. I have a chronic illness. I had to give up a job that was my life, immense responsibility, double shifts. It was exhausting mentally and physically. I struggled. Later, I became a mum and it's also exhausting, sometimes less, sometimes equally and sometimes more. There's no downtime 24/7.

No one has walked in another person's shoes. This shouldn't be us vs them with mums and non mums, especially in the same breath bringing feminism into it. Everyone's situation, responsibilities and health is different. Everyone needs a break.

OP,
You have my full sympathy.
What a dreadful organisation you work for.

I have never heard of anything so discriminatory as a company deciding that the childfree part of the work force will just do extra.

How does that work for men with children?
Are they also in this cohort that get their work past on to others?

Or is this shitty policy aimed only at single women.

My husband works for a multi continent company and he cannot believe an environment that would suggest this either.

What type of work environment?
Professional?

It reads as so discriminatory.
My husbands company is private, non unionised and the idea of this scenario is preposterous.

The vast majority of my closest old friends also work and this simply wouldn't fly.

@billy1966 Public sector. Its extremely family friendly, which is great, unless they don’t count you as a family!

Men with children were eligible too although I have to say that, at least as far as my department (150 or so) goes, they didn’t take it up in the same way that women with kids did. Likely because kids are still seen as primarily mum’s domain, I’m guessing.

@RattlesnakesUnfold it is clear you have no reading comprehension. You were the one who said that someone with a disability that they had not disclosed couldn’t possibly be as tired as someone with kids.

@WooTwo probably should get some reading comprehension classes with @RattlesnakesUnfold.

@Peach01 that is exactly the point. Can you not read. It was @RattlesnakesUnfold who claims she smiles at child free people who are tired because they couldn’t possibly be tired as they don’t have any kids. Ignoring the fact they could have a whole host of illnesses or other caring opportunities that makes them exhausted. Did you even read her comments?

No one has walked in another person's shoes. This shouldn't be us vs them with mums and non mums, especially in the same breath bringing feminism into it. Everyone's situation, responsibilities and health is different. Everyone needs a break.

This. I know what I feel like when I'm exhausted. I know the effect night shifts have on me. I don't think this means I trump anyone, I just think I'm tired.

New job for sure. New friend if she doesn't apologise