Friend and I not speaking - who should apologise?

[AudacityBaby]

I’ve NC for this but a regular user.

I’m infertile and my friend has a toddler and a baby.

I was complaining to her about a work policy that was introduced in March 2020 that allowed those with caring responsibilities to halve their hours on full pay, whilst expecting those without caring responsibilities to pick up the normal workload and additional work created by COVID for no extra pay. A great policy but a pretty unbalanced impact.

The trade off we were told was that everyone working half hours would have to use their annual leave so that those working overtime could be prioritised for longer periods of rest. The problem is that this wasn’t enforced by the employer and now those who are back are insisting on using their annual leave for large stretches of the summer to cover childcare. Which is fair enough, but once again those without are being told that they’ll need to cover and that their break can be September onwards.

Anyway… I was saying to my friend that I’m knackered now and don’t know whether it’s time to look for another job. She said that in her view people with kids are doing something useful for society and therefore the role of those without is to assist them in doing that. I was surprised and said that I didn’t consider my role in life was to help parents, particularly - I’ll help others of course, that’s part of being in a society, but that’s not my purpose! I have my own things too.

She said that childless people aren’t contributing to society long-term and therefore they should be expected to help out like this in times of crisis and not try and attack parents who are doing the best they can and providing for everyone’s future. She also said it’s anti-feminist to refuse to help out as the COVID burden fell mostly on women with children.

I told her how hurt I was at how she apparently viewed my life and we’re not currently speaking. AIBU to be so upset? Is this just something I should chalk up to everyone having had a horrible year and perhaps saying insensitive things? Or is this a sign that we’ve outgrown each other? We’re not as close as we used to be and maybe we just don’t see things the same way.

And no, this isn’t a reverse - I hate the bloody things!

YABU - friend has a point / you’re being petty and need to just let it g
YANBU - friend was insensitive and should be the first to reach out

@Wishimaywishimight

What utter bullshit. I have no children, by choice, and have zero interest in helping anyone else bring up theirs, why on earth would I? Some mothers really have notions that they're somehow more important to the world than those of us who chose not to reproduce.

I simply could not be friends with someone so utterly stupid and narrow minded. I would find myself (mostly) internally growling every time I looked at her.

Well I have children and couldn't be listening to such shite.

I think the whole idea of childless people in the workplace having to suck it up is not acceptable.
At all.
People choose to have children.
Someone needing to leave work early for a sick child is one thing.
Handing over their work to childless colleagues for months on end with a suck it up attitude is not acceptable.

Appalling. Honestly!

@Peach01 I’m not sure. I know she’s had a really tough time this last year, as her maternity leave was spoiled by COVID and she’s quite sensitive to issues affecting mothers of young children so it might be that she was talking more generally whereas I was talking about my specific case.

@Atalantea Well, quite. I was ok with it at first - all in this together etc - but a year on it was too much!

I feel like my friend is getting a bit of a pasting by proxy - she’s not a terrible person or PFB or anything like that. She’s always been outspoken about the under appreciation of mothers though.

You’re being very kind op. Your friend is getting a pasting here as she has turned to you and literally told you your life just isn’t that important, not like hers and other mothers. That’s well beyond supporting issues that affect mothers.

A colleague of mine who had worked the previous Christmas asked for Christmas day off.
Our manager said colleague didn't need Christmas day off as she had no family.
My colleague said she did have a family, she had a mother and a father and as she was their only child she should spend Christmas with them.
She got the day off.
Families are not just those with small children.

@timeisnotaline This is exactly my experience, too. I’m worried about taking sick leave as I’d be concerned about career prospects etc, especially if I do want to change jobs. I’m single so I’m the only earner. It’s all so difficult!

I agree with her that society should support people with children but the 'burden' of the next generation should be spread across the whole of society not fall on the shoulders of a few individual colleagues. The company have gone about this in a very clumsy way. So I think you both are right but she is being a little blinkered not to see the distinction between your personal situation and the botched way the company have attempted to consider the demands they make on their staff with caring responsibilities ... and her perfectly valid principles. I think maybe she was reacting defensively without thinking it through. Perhaps you could respectfully try to discuss that as you value her firendship and don't want to fall out, and see if you can't recognise each others point.

She said that childless people aren’t contributing to society long-term

She's an idiot, childless workers pay towards her very generous maternity leave provision which boosts Costa's profits etc.
Tell her you weren't there to enjoy the conception so you're not there to suffer to consequences of her choice to have a child.

@RealisticSketch Thank you, this is kinda where I think she was coming from. I don’t know what I’ll do next but your suggestion is a good one.

[quote AudacityBaby]@Atalantea For half of their hours, yes. They would work the other half. A few others on the thread have confirmed their employers used the same policy. In terms of legality, I can’t see that a claim would be easy - being childless isn’t a protected characteristic.

Thanks, all. A pretty even split of “chuck the friend” and “try to move past it”. I think I do need to think about whether the friendship is worth keeping - we’ve been drifting apart for a while I think.[/quote]
To be honest, you can't be all that close anyway if you've never told her about your infertility. It sounds like she's more of an acquaintance at least, just a work colleague at best. It doesn't sound like you even have a friendship with her if she doesn't know.

Perhaps if you came at it from a 'I agree with you in principle' way, but outline how the balance has tipped too far the other way in this situation. What would the company do if 95% of their staff were had caring responsibilities - their policy would be unsustainable, which shows that it isn't OK. They need to gear their overall human resources to take the strain (hire more people, get cover properly etc) not drastically alter the demands of the workload on the existing staff and expect those humans to cope, as a policy

@AudacityBaby - you should be ok with that, its just not right
(and your friend is an insensitive cowbag)

Op thanks for your reply, just to make clear I am not supporting your friend in any way. Her comments to you were nasty, I was just thinking from the perspective that you may not want to lose a close friend if you were both stressed when these comments came out. We all say things we don’t necessarily mean in the heat of an argument/debate.

@CokeDrinker I disagree with this. Not all my friends know about my infertility, whereas one of my work colleagues does. It’s not just about closeness, though that’s part of it. It’s also whether I feel comfortable telling the person. It’s a very painful subject and I don’t see it as a marker of my friendship strength.

You’re friend is an arsehole. Has she always been like this?! Or just since she because more “useful”. Give me her number and l can pass it onto an ex friend of mine who thinks people with children should start work later and finish earlier than people with children. But get paid the same amount as their more busy, not sure where that leaves people caring for elderly parents, siblings, partners etc. As an aside your employer is being totally unreasonable and l would open a grievance about that policy

Bloody hell aside from how insensitive it was to vocalise her opinion to her infertile friend it's a pretty nasty opinion to hold in the first place.. childless people only exist to help parents raise their children?! Wtf!

I’d drop the whole conversation to be honest and move on.

Speaking with someone as a baby and toddler and an older child- it’s utterly knackering. For that reason anyone without kids talking complaining about carers’ leave would probably wind me up from the off. Unreasonable yes- but at the moment things feel tough and my children are great but really are all-consuming. When I see the life of childless people it really does look so bloody simple in comparison. Again, unreasonable but that’s the effect of no sleep and trying to sort out 3 people ahead of myself constantly.

With yourself, anything that feels like childless people are being burdened further or ‘not contributing’ is really going to bloody sting. Those were nasty words she used. I can see why you’d be upset.

Just realize that for both of you this is a topic that will raise your hackles for differing reasons. Just avoid the topic and quietly put it to bed. In a few short years you will probably both have opposite points of view to what you do now!

YANBU. I’d say don’t you dare apologise. Also when someone tells you who they are believe them. This is what she honestly feels - are you okay with that? If so then accept her apology if she gives it but I would not give an apology for existing and wanting to be treated with respect.

@Confiscatedfidgetspinner Thank you. I do understand that she’s tired and that being a mother is really challenging, but it is frustrating when people think that childless people have an easy life. As it happens I’m unlikely to have a different position in a few years as I’m infertile.

Your friend sounds a bit entitled.

There are lots of ways to contribute to society and it's insensitive of her to say what she did without having in mind that not everyone who is childless is so by choice.

Your friend is awful. She doesn’t know your situation but that doesn’t matter. She made a choice to have kids. Lots of people make the choice not to or can’t. What a horrible person she is. Your work have messed up and you are perfectly entitled to a rant but I also couldn’t be friends with her I’m afraid.

I'd ditch her. She sounds like one of those who always has it worse than everyone else. I notice someone commenting about tiredness above, I sleep walk and sometimes end up with about 90 minutes actual sleep. I'd take getting up a few times in the night over that!

@AudacityBaby my workplace had the same policy around leave post full lockdown. I had a thread in employment issues about it. You need to stand your ground.

Also, if you are truly exhausted (I am so you probably are!) You could consider getting signed off by your GP. You can't run yourself into the ground.

She's a selfish self centred wee Cow... she's not your 'friend' and you don't enemies with friends like Her WTF. 😳

YANBU. Having kids is not some selfless act for society!