Friend and I not speaking - who should apologise?

[AudacityBaby]

I’ve NC for this but a regular user.

I’m infertile and my friend has a toddler and a baby.

I was complaining to her about a work policy that was introduced in March 2020 that allowed those with caring responsibilities to halve their hours on full pay, whilst expecting those without caring responsibilities to pick up the normal workload and additional work created by COVID for no extra pay. A great policy but a pretty unbalanced impact.

The trade off we were told was that everyone working half hours would have to use their annual leave so that those working overtime could be prioritised for longer periods of rest. The problem is that this wasn’t enforced by the employer and now those who are back are insisting on using their annual leave for large stretches of the summer to cover childcare. Which is fair enough, but once again those without are being told that they’ll need to cover and that their break can be September onwards.

Anyway… I was saying to my friend that I’m knackered now and don’t know whether it’s time to look for another job. She said that in her view people with kids are doing something useful for society and therefore the role of those without is to assist them in doing that. I was surprised and said that I didn’t consider my role in life was to help parents, particularly - I’ll help others of course, that’s part of being in a society, but that’s not my purpose! I have my own things too.

She said that childless people aren’t contributing to society long-term and therefore they should be expected to help out like this in times of crisis and not try and attack parents who are doing the best they can and providing for everyone’s future. She also said it’s anti-feminist to refuse to help out as the COVID burden fell mostly on women with children.

I told her how hurt I was at how she apparently viewed my life and we’re not currently speaking. AIBU to be so upset? Is this just something I should chalk up to everyone having had a horrible year and perhaps saying insensitive things? Or is this a sign that we’ve outgrown each other? We’re not as close as we used to be and maybe we just don’t see things the same way.

And no, this isn’t a reverse - I hate the bloody things!

YABU - friend has a point / you’re being petty and need to just let it g
YANBU - friend was insensitive and should be the first to reach out

@AudacityBaby

I haven’t had requests for annual leave turned down but my employer has made it clear that given ongoing issues with summer schools etc. that parents are going to be given priority for annual leave over the summer, so that kids aren’t left alone and/or there isn’t a big issue with people WFH with kids around.

I may have to get bolshy but I’ve never been in this kind of situation so it’s all a bit difficult.

I worked in a place like that, parents got first dibs on Christmas off (and this often led on to if they became grandparents), parents got first dibs on summer holidays, parents were allowed to leave an hour early but if I asked to leave 15 minutes early for a doctors appointment then I had to make the time up.

Eventually all the non parents left and they had serious trouble trying to reinstate a fair way of working as the parents still tried to refuse to work Christmas etc.

You are unreasonable to even consider apologising to her. Her comments were grossly insensitive, downright nasty really. And utterly wrong. What a self important gobshite she is.

Your friend is a nob and one of those classic examples of self entitled arsehole parents who think the entire world revolves around them & their spawn, and that everyone should bow down to them and be at their beck and call. 🙄

NB/disclaimer: I am aware most parents are not like this.

Get a new job. This is so unfair, your friend is massively unreasonable and insensitive

Firstly that's a shitty policy at work and sounds pretty discriminatory to me. A few years ago they changed flexible working so that every request for flexible working has to be considered equally irrespective of caring responsibilities (which isnt just for children) so this seems a backwards step.

The pandemic has been shit for everyone, my company were good about not putting too much pressure on my but home schooling and trying to complete as much of my work in the evenings as I could, almost broke me, and my husband was doing the same. We just about managed but I know if I was a single parent or my husband had a job where he was working outside the home,it would inevitably have meant my colleagues without young children picking up the slack. And whilst that wouldnt have been fair on them, it wouldn't have been fair on me either having to home school and work every evening and weekend just because of stupid decisions by the government.

Anyway though, your friend is being massively unreasonable and I cant believe you're even considering apologising. For what? For moaning about your work which is harder for you now? Everyone does this! Or for getting upset when she criticised your lack of children? You're allowed to have feelings and if you expressed those in a polite way (eg saying I feel hurt by what you said, rather than saying wtf you rude bitch) then its completely legitimate to tell your friend when they have upset you. I cant believe she turned a moan about your work into a rant about your role in society being directly linked to breeding!

Best hope her kids plough millions into the tax system or find the cure for cancer etc and never have a long term health issue or have to take more from society than they contribute or she will have totally failed as a human being

I think this is a valuable lesson that some conversations shouldn't be had with certain people, no matter how close you are. I can't see how this conversation could have ended well. On the one hand you've got a parent who wants to defend the rights of mothers during the pandemic. On the other hand you have a woman struggling with infertility and punished during the pandemic to support those said mothers. It's just an explosion waiting to happen.

I've learned the hard way to quickly exit these kind of conversations before they get started. I have a friend whose parenting method strongly clashes with mine. To be honest, I think she's doing it all wrong, but as soon as she starts trying to give me parenting tips I just find an excuse like, that reminds me, I forgot to put the washing on. Another friend (doctor) didn't agree with nurseries being open although she leaves her kids with gps every day, while I can't continue working without childcare. Again just find a way to swiftly move on before we clash.

So yabu for getting into the conversation in the first place but yanbu that your friend was insensitive and also didn't just agree to disagree.

I think your friend is insensitive, but that doesn't mean she needs to apologise. Neither do you. People can have different opinions and argue about them, but that doesn't mean one of them has to be wrong and have to apologise afterwards.
Either what she said is enough to end your friendship, or you agree to disagree and carry on.

People can have different opinions yes but I think when someones opinion is that your life is 'worth less' than theirs just because of a fluke of luck and biology that they have children, and they voice that opinion...its a massive 'fuck you' and tbh I don't think many people could forgive or move on from that without a massive apology

@AudacityBaby

I’ve NC for this but a regular user.

I’m infertile and my friend has a toddler and a baby.

I was complaining to her about a work policy that was introduced in March 2020 that allowed those with caring responsibilities to halve their hours on full pay, whilst expecting those without caring responsibilities to pick up the normal workload and additional work created by COVID for no extra pay. A great policy but a pretty unbalanced impact.

The trade off we were told was that everyone working half hours would have to use their annual leave so that those working overtime could be prioritised for longer periods of rest. The problem is that this wasn’t enforced by the employer and now those who are back are insisting on using their annual leave for large stretches of the summer to cover childcare. Which is fair enough, but once again those without are being told that they’ll need to cover and that their break can be September onwards.

Anyway… I was saying to my friend that I’m knackered now and don’t know whether it’s time to look for another job. She said that in her view people with kids are doing something useful for society and therefore the role of those without is to assist them in doing that. I was surprised and said that I didn’t consider my role in life was to help parents, particularly - I’ll help others of course, that’s part of being in a society, but that’s not my purpose! I have my own things too.

She said that childless people aren’t contributing to society long-term and therefore they should be expected to help out like this in times of crisis and not try and attack parents who are doing the best they can and providing for everyone’s future. She also said it’s anti-feminist to refuse to help out as the COVID burden fell mostly on women with children.

I told her how hurt I was at how she apparently viewed my life and we’re not currently speaking. AIBU to be so upset? Is this just something I should chalk up to everyone having had a horrible year and perhaps saying insensitive things? Or is this a sign that we’ve outgrown each other? We’re not as close as we used to be and maybe we just don’t see things the same way.

And no, this isn’t a reverse - I hate the bloody things!

YABU - friend has a point / you’re being petty and need to just let it g
YANBU - friend was insensitive and should be the first to reach out

Wow. That's one cunt of a 'friend'. I'd fuck her right off.

allowed those with caring responsibilities to halve their hours on full pay, whilst expecting those without caring responsibilities to pick up the normal workload and additional work created by COVID for no extra pay. A great policy but a pretty unbalanced impact.

Are you saying they paid parents to stay home, on full pay??? and those without children had to work extra hours to cover those parents???

(if i am reading this wrong, then apologies)

I would engineer a three-way conversation with a mutual friend who has twice as many children as the friend you argued with, and suggest that as the mutual friend is contributing twice as much to society, the first friend ought to be doing a lot more to support her.

@Brefugee

Blimey, OP. Have you requested holiday and it's been turned down?

My reaction to that would to be to send my boss and HR copies of the agreement and asking them to keep their word.

Your friend sounds awful and your company are CF's and I would NOT be tolerating their behaviour.

You and your colleagues need to take some sick leave for exhaustion due to their policy of the past year.

I can't imagine it's legal.

Your friend was insensitive and has an inflated sense of her importance.

But engaging in a stand off, well, does it matter who is first? The bigger, more mature person will be the first to say ‘ouch, that was a painful discussion, but I hope we can have a coffee and cake / cocktail to discuss things we agree about. Xxx’.

@Atalantea For half of their hours, yes. They would work the other half. A few others on the thread have confirmed their employers used the same policy. In terms of legality, I can’t see that a claim would be easy - being childless isn’t a protected characteristic.

Thanks, all. A pretty even split of “chuck the friend” and “try to move past it”. I think I do need to think about whether the friendship is worth keeping - we’ve been drifting apart for a while I think.

What utter bullshit. I have no children, by choice, and have zero interest in helping anyone else bring up theirs, why on earth would I? Some mothers really have notions that they're somehow more important to the world than those of us who chose not to reproduce.

I simply could not be friends with someone so utterly stupid and narrow minded. I would find myself (mostly) internally growling every time I looked at her.

You are contributing to society. Just in a different and very important way.

Your friend said was really insensitive, horrible statement to make. Could she have felt like she needed to justify her position but made a terriblejob at gettingher point across? I don't think what you've said is wrong at all, could she maybe have interpreted it in a different way? I'm just trying to understand what would warrant her to respond like that. Sounds like an emotional response because it's the employer that you quite rightly have the grievance with, not her personally. I think she should apologise for that comment but I don't think it matters who makes the first move.

Your employer messed up by not enforcing the annual leave policy, and leaving their staff feeling undervalued. That's the route of it.

Sorry for the typos!

[quote AudacityBaby]@Atalantea For half of their hours, yes. They would work the other half. A few others on the thread have confirmed their employers used the same policy. In terms of legality, I can’t see that a claim would be easy - being childless isn’t a protected characteristic.

Thanks, all. A pretty even split of “chuck the friend” and “try to move past it”. I think I do need to think about whether the friendship is worth keeping - we’ve been drifting apart for a while I think.[/quote]
my god! that is horrific! (even saying it as a parent)

There is no way I would work there with that level of unfairness. Why should you work for less than half the pay of a parent?

bollocks to that!!

Sweet jesus. Do not apologise to her, you have done nothinh wrong. She sounds hideous. I loathe the type of woman that believes the world revolves around her once she has children. I hated it pre kids and I still hate it now I have two. Ugh, I bet she is the type that refuses to fold down her pram for a wheelchair

I'm really sorry you had to hear such mean things. They arent true.

[quote Librariesmakeshhhhappen]@hazandduck

Up and at 'em not Adam.[/quote]
Oops I had no idea it wasn’t Adam 😂🙈

Now is the time to block and delete the bitch.

She said that childless people aren’t contributing to society long-term and therefore they should be expected to help out like this in times of crisis and not try and attack parents who are doing the best they can and providing for everyone’s future.

Wow. Even as a mum I have never understood this kind of attitude. Did you remind her of the fact that the taxes you as a childless person pay, also contribute to education, healthcare etc of her DC?

I have an old friend who also has this attitude to a lesser degree, I cringe internally when she starts humble bragging again about how she does everything for her DC, how they only get the best of the best and she never buys herself anything, she won’t get divorced so she doesn’t have to see her DC less so she will suffer in silence etc. I think this kind of attitude comes from deep insecurity and a combination of a lack of own identity and a sense of entitlement. I find it deeply unpleasant and although I appreciate it if people are trying to be helpful when they see me struggle with DS, I never expect it and certainly don’t feel entitled or more then others because I have a DC. She clearly feels better then you and that’s never a good starting point for any friendship so I think YANBU, unless she profusely apologizes for basically telling you that you’re less then her and other mums, I wouldn’t want her anymore as a friend.

I have children and I wouldn’t want your friend in my life, what a narrow minded self centred twat. I have lots of sympathy for parents especialky mums in the pandemic of course but not like that. My sister is childfree and shouldered a lot of extra work- work couldnt realistically ask parents to do more as parents aren’t going to neglect their children and there are only so many hours in the day, so management should have adjusted. I told my sister to take sick leave, call it stress leave and get some r&r - she needed it. You should take some stress leave too.