Another reluctant ‘groom’

[Unlovedandinsecure]

Unlovedandinsecure

Hi all,

Been with my partner for a long time, have children, he owns the house but I work full time. For a long time I didn’t think about marriage as was busy working and raising my children, so I was otherwise occupied! Then a few years ago I started thinking about our future and how we are not related so cannot make decisions for each other etc. I brought this up to DP and he said something along the lines of ‘I’ll do things at my own pace’.

We had a pretty rocky patch after that as I felt he had had enough time to know what he wanted but things improved and he made noises about marriage being a possibility. Today things have come to a head and I have told him our relationship is over as he had been deceitful - he has no intention of proposing but hasn’t had the decency to let me know!

I completely understand that some people don’t want marriage and that’s fine. What isn’t fine is not being honest and upfront about it.

I’m heartbroken and angry in equal measure as if I’d been told the truth from the outset I could have made a decision as to whether to stay or go. It baffles me how you can claim to love a person but intentionally hurt them.

I know these threads are ten a penny but just wanted some advice, even if it’s to tell me how stupid I have been!

Quote OP: 'He did ask me if I want him to add my name to the house deeds and that is something for me to consider but to be honest I see the house as my children’s inheritance and not a cash asset for us.'

You have been totally naive here OP. Of course your name should be on the house deeds as a minimum. The kids inherit it after you both no longer need it. You seem to have very faulty logic so no wonder he has got away with stalling for so long.
Why do you think of your kids' future inheritance and not your own immediate financial security?

Blossomtoes umm I never said all the financial onus should be on them at all so I'm unclear as to why you've made that up? A couple should live within the means of the lowest earner so that they could manage following a death or break up. Surely that's just sensible? Any money saved from this method should go into equal savings.

@WaterOffADucksCrack

Blossomtoes umm I never said all the financial onus should be on them at all so I'm unclear as to why you've made that up? A couple should live within the means of the lowest earner so that they could manage following a death or break up. Surely that's just sensible? Any money saved from this method should go into equal savings.

You said Or teach them to be financially independent? Or to always ensure they could manage the house and bills alone if needed? Or to always ensure they have enough of their own money to leave if needed?

Which is completely putting the financial responsibility on a woman. There are very few households that could make ends meet on their lowest income.

You split up. He marries his next partner ( usually within five minutes of meeting her). She gets the house when he dies, not your DC
If you want your DC to inherit some of the house, you can only actually guarantee your 50% will go to them. And to do that you need your name on the deeds.

Hi OP,
In your position I would begin to increase my socialising with friends, join interest based clubs etc as things are opening back up. It would do your partner good to have a little worry that he might have some competition. Also if you do decide to leave your relationship you will have build a good support network.

I’m not going to mention it again now

So you're just going to cave then, and accept the status quo, and do nothing?

You should be giving him an ultimatum. That he said he'd only marry you if you or he were going to die, and he doesn't want to live alone, shows he is a selfish pig. It's all about him, isn't it? He doesn't give a fuck about what you want. Part of being an adult is considering consequences, and if he has never considered the consequences to you and the children if he were to die, shows he hasn't learned to adult.

Give him an ultimatum or LTB. Don't just cave in. Woman up.

Blossomtoes You're just twisting things and trying to pick a fight for some weird reason so I'll leave you to it.

It would have helped the conversation if the OP had mentioned right from the start that her partner had offered to put his house in joint names.

Almost every post here trying to offer support has asked why she isn't a co-owner and how she ought to be, and has included advice on what steps to take, legally etc.

I don't know what to think- whether he has offered all along, or if the OP doesn't want to say why she didn't push for this years ago.

In any case, the 'advice' people have given has all been a bit of a waste of energy, based on lack of information.

@JinglingHellsBells

It would have helped the conversation if the OP had mentioned right from the start that her partner had offered to put his house in joint names.

Almost every post here trying to offer support has asked why she isn't a co-owner and how she ought to be, and has included advice on what steps to take, legally etc.

I don't know what to think- whether he has offered all along, or if the OP doesn't want to say why she didn't push for this years ago.

In any case, the 'advice' people have given has all been a bit of a waste of energy, based on lack of information.

Agree. This omission added to negative view of the DP, possibly to reinforce the comment by OP of being deceitful. In fact, DP has offered to give security, which strangely the OP is thinking about, instead of changing those deeds. Not saying yes or no is not deceitful. Not saying yes, is really a no. The relationship has run along its course for a number of years, why would the DP change it now? Surely intent is set at the beginning of a relationship / journey of having children? It’s as if the OP is setting different cards on the table now.

Except that 9 times out of 10 it's the mother who loses out on salary and career progression when there are children involved. And that if, perish the thought, the couple would prefer not to put their children in childcare before school age, then 9 times out of 10 it's the mother that does this because, guess what, they have the lower salary and the slower career progression.

But that is what needs fixing, women shouldn't give up work because they are the lower earner. They need to be more focussed on careers men move jobs much more regularly and are more likely to lie about their current pay to get a better position. They need to take stem subjects as on my engineering course 15% were women, there was nothing that stopped me as a woman from applying so why the lower figure. We are currently more educated that men at school leaving age and more likely to go to university and make up the majority of HR departments (why don't I ever receive an email from a man in HR) but those lack of presence in higher paying roles in software and engineering or lack of negotiating pay really bites us.

@Birminghambloke morning. He mentioned adding my name to the deeds yesterday, after the thread started so couldn’t be mentioned at the start. Also, him saying this and actually setting the wheels in motion are two different things. I’ve also discovered I can get free legal advice via my union ( not a lot, just 20 mins I think) so I will be utilising that for further advice.

I’ve been given some very good advice and suggestions which I’m going to take away and consider so thanks to all.

@JinglingHellsBells

It would have helped the conversation if the OP had mentioned right from the start that her partner had offered to put his house in joint names.

Almost every post here trying to offer support has asked why she isn't a co-owner and how she ought to be, and has included advice on what steps to take, legally etc.

I don't know what to think- whether he has offered all along, or if the OP doesn't want to say why she didn't push for this years ago.

In any case, the 'advice' people have given has all been a bit of a waste of energy, based on lack of information.

All your replies have been negative and based on things you have made up rather than actually read. If you can’t take the time to actually read my posts then it’s best you don’t offer your ‘opinion’.

No, he hadn’t offered all along, it was mentioned after I started the thread.

I feel you are projecting a bit.

I'm not sure you understand what projecting means @Unlovedandinsecure

It would have helped if you had made it clear that your DP had offered to put you on the deeds as result of starting this thread.

It wasn't a case of being negative, but asking how things had come this far after 20+ years.

You ought to be eating his hand off to get the offer of co-owning his house! It's a no-brainer.

[quote Unlovedandinsecure]@Birminghambloke morning. He mentioned adding my name to the deeds yesterday, after the thread started so couldn’t be mentioned at the start. Also, him saying this and actually setting the wheels in motion are two different things. I’ve also discovered I can get free legal advice via my union ( not a lot, just 20 mins I think) so I will be utilising that for further advice.

I’ve been given some very good advice and suggestions which I’m going to take away and consider so thanks to all.[/quote]
Ah ok. It wasn’t clear in your post yesterday afternoon that DP mentioned it only yesterday. You said “He did … deeds…”. I took it as it happened in the past from how it was phrased, as I think others did too. I’d go for that. You can set the wheels in motion, especially if you know him saying/ doing can be an issue. The legal advice will help, as you say. I guess if you remain unhappy about the marriage situation, you can then split up after adding your name to the deeds. Is that what you meant with the cash asset/ inheritance comment? It’s sad a relationship that has sustained over time, with a good father in the mix, could end. It feels extremes or wanting the commitment of marriage or then nothing.

it just requires a simple yes let’s do it or no, move on.

Make your own decision and tell him, for instance, that as marriage is never going to happen you'll be moving on unless arrangements are made to make things more secure for both of you.

OP I mentioned this before, but you have three choices

• stay and accept the status quo
• leave him
• give him an ultimatum that either you are married by x date or you will leave - if you do this you have to follow it through.

Hes made it clear he isn't going to make a decision, so you need to. Either accept that this is the way it's going to be and make your piece with it, or do something to change it. Which are you going to do?

You need to get legal advice.

Depending on how you contributed money towards the house you may have a legal financial interest in it.

If you paid the utility bills or groceries for example = no financial interest in the house

If you paid part of the mortgage = financial interest in the house

If you contributed to any major renovations = financial interest in the house.

Obviously things get difficult to prove if (as is the norm) you simply paid an amount into the joint account which all bills and mortgage came from.

In that case you would need some evidence that the money was meant to be a contribution to the mortgage - this is why it's worth getting legal advice as it may be that you could get this from him now somehow without him realising that that's what you are doing IYSWIM?

A legal appointment is a necessity at this point but kept very quiet!

Just a quick note that my comment is based on having a law degree but I'm not a practising lawyer. However it's not quite as black and white as PP have made out (that you definitely have no financial interest if you're not married).

I don't want to raise your hopes as you most likely don't have the proof needed that you contributed to the mortgage specifically however I do think this is important enough that you should have a meeting with a solicitor and make sure you are 100% clear.

I don't know, for example, whether sort of tricking him into admitting that you've contributed to the mortgage all these years in a text would be enough evidence or admissible...this is the kind of thing a solicitor would know and be able to tell you. I feel like the answer is probably 'no' but I'd want to know for sure.

Sorry have just seen the thread has moved on.

Yes to getting on the deeds. I would personally still see a solicitor quietly to know where you stand if it turns out he doesn't actually do this.

I'd also want more than him just saying he'd put you on the deeds (documents).

I would get a solicitor and register a financial interest in the house. Then move out and leave him to get on with his life “at his own pace”. You’ve been more than patient and it’s clear he doesn’t want to marry you, otherwise he’d have done it already. You’re currently in a position to move on and marry someone else, but that opportunity won’t last forever.

you have three choices
- stay and accept the status quo
- leave him
- give him an ultimatum that either you are married by x date or you will leave - if you do this you have to follow it through.

Before looking at these decisons. I would get myself legally entitled to a share in the house as the top priority, because the OP needs a share in the house even if she decides to leave; and wills as the second priority in case anything happens to either of them. These three other decisions can wait.

@toconclude

You can't make decisions for each other even if you are married/related. You need a power of attorney.

Amazing how many people think "next of kin" is a thing that allows this. It doesn't.

Hm. When my friend was in a difficult birth it was her husband the doctors went to for permission to do an emergency cesaerean in the hallway because “she isn’t competent to give informed consent and you’re her next of kin.” Dunno what the legalities are but bein next of kin is meaningful. And don’t get me started on what happens if the main earner dirs and you’re not married…

Anyway op I’m sorry this happened 😢 I don’t think from outside we can tell you what to do but you are entitled to feel upset and he is entitled to nit want to marry. The main problem is why he doesn’t want to marry, it doesn’t sound like you’re both feeling wildly in love at the moment.

@wheresmymojo

Just a quick note that my comment is based on having a law degree but I'm not a practising lawyer. However it's not quite as black and white as PP have made out (that you definitely have no financial interest if you're not married).

I don't want to raise your hopes as you most likely don't have the proof needed that you contributed to the mortgage specifically however I do think this is important enough that you should have a meeting with a solicitor and make sure you are 100% clear.

I don't know, for example, whether sort of tricking him into admitting that you've contributed to the mortgage all these years in a text would be enough evidence or admissible...this is the kind of thing a solicitor would know and be able to tell you. I feel like the answer is probably 'no' but I'd want to know for sure.

I'm so glad you posted this. Not enough women are aware of the precarious position they can find themselves in if their partner decides he wants them out.

'Common knowledge' says that a woman living as a common-law wife has rights but she doesn't. Yes, you can fight and sometimes succeed but that's normally when the partner wants an easy life with a quick fix and is willing to pay, not when he isn't. With so many couples choosing to live together instead of marrying it is high time laws were changed to recognise that a woman's contribution to the household are important.

I know this isn't relevant to the OP but so many women are discarded after their 'job' of raising a man's children is finished and his interest turns to a younger woman.

Yes, it happens to married couples but we all know that the vast majority of women are still not equal to men financially and still are much more likely to shoulder the most work when it comes to housework and children. This work is time she could have spent following her career path and gaining the kind of financial security her partner has.

If anyone reading this has any kind of influence with a woman wanting to co-habit please ask them to read this thread and others like it. We need change for the better and it starts with laying down the facts.

OP, I hope you get things sorted.

@MobyDicksTinyCanoe

Marraige is a financial contract. If hes a higher earner with his own house he'd be a fool to marry. Especially as he already has children as this will effect any inheritance.

You dont need to be married to be listed as next of kin or to make wills. Stop trying to force the poor bloke down the aisle when the only person who stands to benefit is you. You dont have children so there is no reason to marry.

@MobyDicksTinyCanoe

Second line of the OP. They have children .

@wheresmymojo What I have read over the years is that to have any financial interest, there needs to be a consistent record of payments, via a bank/ building society ,such as DD or SO, paying towards a mortgage. This type of issue has come up many times on Mumsnet. Paying for furnishings or a sofa, or whatever, isn't necessarily going to hack it.

Most women usually neither want to pursue this via the courts nor have the finances to do it.

Again, the myth of being a 'common law wife' has come up many times but for some unknown reason, women still seem to believe it exists. (I would genuinely like to know why they believe that as it's simply not the case . IME it was a euphemism people used to gloss over the fact that a couple were living together but not married, (and make it socially acceptable.)