Another reluctant ‘groom’

[Unlovedandinsecure]

Unlovedandinsecure

Hi all,

Been with my partner for a long time, have children, he owns the house but I work full time. For a long time I didn’t think about marriage as was busy working and raising my children, so I was otherwise occupied! Then a few years ago I started thinking about our future and how we are not related so cannot make decisions for each other etc. I brought this up to DP and he said something along the lines of ‘I’ll do things at my own pace’.

We had a pretty rocky patch after that as I felt he had had enough time to know what he wanted but things improved and he made noises about marriage being a possibility. Today things have come to a head and I have told him our relationship is over as he had been deceitful - he has no intention of proposing but hasn’t had the decency to let me know!

I completely understand that some people don’t want marriage and that’s fine. What isn’t fine is not being honest and upfront about it.

I’m heartbroken and angry in equal measure as if I’d been told the truth from the outset I could have made a decision as to whether to stay or go. It baffles me how you can claim to love a person but intentionally hurt them.

I know these threads are ten a penny but just wanted some advice, even if it’s to tell me how stupid I have been!

Now would be a good time to start saving as his actions are far more eloquent than his words. He has no intention of ever seeing you as an equal partner.

Get some professional legal advance - start with CAB and see what you are entitled to.

This is nothing to do with morality in being unmarried with children etc but he clearly sees his house and assets as more important than you or the children. He won't come round to this as he is used to getting the best deal for the minimum effort.

If the house in his name, he probably feels he has a lot to lose if you both marry.

Currently, he gets to keep the house even though you are paying many of the household costs. As the years roll by, the house is an increasingly valuable asset and he stands to lose more if you do marry and the relationship then breaks down.

It's not really that surprising that he wants to leave the arrangement 'as-is' as it is in his best interests.

The arrangement is absolutely not fair to you, OP.

*We don't need to revert back to needing to be married to protect women, we need to push forward equality

We’ve been pushing forward for equality for decades. It hasn’t got us anywhere except backwards. It’s pretty obvious that as a class men can’t be depended upon as voluntary partners in equality. It has to be contractual to work.

Absolutely this.

We’ve spent the last 20 years, with paternity leave, encouraging men to be fathers, homemakers, pushing women to take more careers. Women are less protected than they were and more exhausted - taken on a career, waiting for later for children (for men to mature), giving up or going part-time in career when man doesn’t want to be*

Sadly I can relate so much to this, it's heart breaking and DH was a SAHD for a bit and I am the higher earner

[quote Unlovedandinsecure]@stayathomer I’ve done the sitting down and trying to calmly put my point across but he gets agitated and said he doesn’t want to be forced to do anything. Today he has said he’s not against it but never gave it much thought, despite knowing it was important to me.

I’m not mentioning it to him again. He’s been left in no doubt as to how I feel. I don’t think I can continue to play the role of ‘wife’ and not be one.[/quote]
Would talking this over with a counsellor help at all? Either both of you, or you alone, for yourself?

It sounds from your posts as if you are saying your bit, he is saying his, but neither of you are actually listening to each other, properly.

I wonder what 'your point' is that you are trying to get across?
Genuinely, I can't work it out from your posts.

If you have been faithful to each other for 20+ years then you are (despite your username) presumably loved, and secure (to an extent.)
Given he's in the stronger position- owning the home- he could have asked you to leave at any time if he doesn't love you.

I have the impression that when you say he knows 'how important' it is to you [to be married] it's something you bring up now and again, and nag him, but don't get to why he's reluctant or why you want it so badly.

Is it all about finances? You need to be honest. The reasons you give in your very first post don't really stack up, because Wills and POA could sort those.

If you have been more or less happy to live together bringing up now adult children, that's an awfully long time to accept not being married.

And it's not clear why you want to change it. I can see his side that he's been happy with the status quo and then suddenly you are making demands that he changes it all.

Why?

Is it all about a declaration of love and wanting to stay together?
or is it about money and realising your house is not yours and you could be in deep do-da if he leaves you?

I don't think you are being totally honest here in your posts about your motives.

@MrsIsobelCrawley But he's not said it's about protecting his assets! So many posters are assuming that is why he doesn't want to marry the OP yet he's not here to confirm that and it may not be the reason!

Before you book that registry office, see a lawyer. Before you do anything, see a lawyer!

If this you did book and he got cold feet at the last minute would it be the turning point for you? It'll need booking. You can't just turn up. I've not booked one but I do know it needs arranging.

You need your ducks in a row before you start pushing this as once you leave it'll be harder to prove your contributions. Getting advice from a good lawyer will be well worth it in the long run.

As for people suggesting children are stigmatised by un-wed parents I'd say they're missing the point and poverty stigmatises more. No one's giving approval for that, just stating historic facts. Things are so much better for children of un-wed parents these days. No name-calling in the playground or hushed gossip in the village shop as it was when I was a child.

However, things are going backwards. Abortion rights are being denied across the world and contraception is more expensive difficult to obtain in more countries. I can't see many men using the washable condom I overheard my mum's friend telling her about these days!

And there's the problem yet again. Men's attitudes.They're still in charge and we definitely need to educate better. Teaching the financial implications of marriage/civil partnership would hopefully help. A legal pre-nup for living together would be helpful, too (as well as knocking the idea on the head that it's 'not romantic').

OP, I feel for you. I'm also betting that if you walk away empty-handed and leave him living in his nice house it won't be long before he finds someone else. Who'll he'll probably marry and possibly have kids with. And that someone won't be happy having her kids share with yours so he'll change his will.

I've seen it several times before so you won't be the first and you definitely won't be the last, sadly.

Ducks in a row, OP. Quietly and quickly. Not romantic but very sensible.

@traumatisednoodle I’m sorry you can relate. Unfortunately I speak from sad experience too. The children and women lose out - that is the cold hard consequence.

As for people suggesting children are stigmatised by un-wed parents I'd say they're missing the point and poverty stigmatises more. Absolutely this too. As a child of divorced parents - I remember having no money, my mum being stressed and changing schools. I remember my Dad having a string of young girlfriends and hardly visiting. I don’t remember any shame of being from a single parent household. It was painful and confusing having to listen to other children have a nice time with their father’s, affording new clothes and their family holidays though.

Today things have come to a head and I have told him our relationship is over as he had been deceitful - he has no intention of proposing but hasn’t had the decency to let me know!

I completely understand that some people don’t want marriage and that’s fine. What isn’t fine is not being honest and upfront about it.

You've clearly stated he won't propose. You're less clear on his views on marriage in general, unless we're to read between the lines or take what's presented as presumed/interpreted as fact.

Have you proposed to him?

@BruteForce What would seeing a solicitor achieve? I can't see how that would help. There are no ducks to get in a row.

The OP has paid for some things during this relationship, but she's not a co-owner, nor- assuming- has her salary been paid regularly off a mortgage to show her contribution.

Sadly, women who live with men like this end up with nothing unless them man is kind and generous and perhaps re-mortgages to give her a deposit for her own home.

The OP said she didn't give marriage much thought for years and years. Well, the question is, why is she now?

He could accuse her of being deceitful equally, as she was very happy to live in his home on an undemanding basis and work part time. These conversations needed to happen from the start of their relationship.

@LuvMyBubbles

Op I was you. The saddest part is that I felt was a rejection. If the wedding was important to me then he should have made it happen. It could have been anything, elope, small big, church, hall, anywhere, anything. I just wanted him to want me to be his wife. I was his business partner and mother to his children but couldn't find the right time to propose and plan a wedding. Twenty years we were together. We only got married two weeks before died, after an 18mth illness, that wasn't the marriage I wanted and I'm so angry at him for that. So do what makes you happy and what you won't regret, if he won't marry you now then leave and find happiness with someone who will.

I’m so sorry you went through this and for your loss 💐

He has not been deceitful. He has not said one thing and done another. He has just delayed and possibly you’ve lived in hope?
The time to ensure ‘money’ / security if something happened was when the children were also dependents. You’re beyond this time now and self sufficient with a full time job.
It sounds as if you now want to guarantee your 50/50 split of assets if something happened.
The timing is a case of ‘why now?’

I think it's really sad that he'd sacrifice a happy relationship to protect himself financially. You've had a long term relationship, had children together. Yet he's still more interested in looking after No 1 than actually making sure you'd be OK if something happened to him.

In which case, you're right to walk away although it's really hard

FWIW, when I met DH, he had his own house but we married when our eldest DD was 6 months old - we had a long discussion about our wills and protecting each other financially should the worst happen, and we both took out life insurance at the same time. We weren't romantic about it as such, I'd already made the biggest commitment of my life having kids with him......... but it was about making sure that we were legally protected.

@DogInATent

Today things have come to a head and I have told him our relationship is over as he had been deceitful - he has no intention of proposing but hasn’t had the decency to let me know!

I completely understand that some people don’t want marriage and that’s fine. What isn’t fine is not being honest and upfront about it.

You've clearly stated he won't propose. You're less clear on his views on marriage in general, unless we're to read between the lines or take what's presented as presumed/interpreted as fact.

Have you proposed to him?

I’ve told him I want to be married, yes. That to me is a proposal, though I get for some people it’s the getting on one knee and presenting a ring. That’s not something I would either do or like him to do for me.

We are a bit long in the tooth for Disney-style romantic gestures, that horse bolted a very long time ago 😂

@Unlovedandinsecure You sound quite 'demanding'. Telling someone you want to get married after being happy not to be for years, isn't really fair, is it? You want to move the goal posts, but does he?

Can you explain what it is about marriage that you want?

It's not clear.

Is it to show his commitment? Or is it because your insecure position re finances has hit you?

If you are bullying him and being insistent, I can see why he is saying no, because it would get anyone's back if they took that tone.

What's changed with you to make you feel this way about marriage?

@Birminghambloke

He has not been deceitful. He has not said one thing and done another. He has just delayed and possibly you’ve lived in hope? The time to ensure ‘money’ / security if something happened was when the children were also dependents. You’re beyond this time now and self sufficient with a full time job. It sounds as if you now want to guarantee your 50/50 split of assets if something happened. The timing is a case of ‘why now?’

Not at all, I want to be his wife and have that commitment from him. I want to be the person to make decisions should he fall ill, and him for me. It’s almost like recognition that you are important to them and they are devoting the rest of their life to you.

The deceit for me is not being honest upfront, not saying yes it will happen or no it won’t. Letting the person you supposedly love go years without a firm decision, knowing the upset it causes. As I’ve said, if our roles were reversed I would have told him I was against marriage and to move on if that’s what he was after, or I would have set a date. I would not leave someone in limbo for an indefinite period and expect them to just suck it up.

[quote JinglingHellsBells]@BruteForce What would seeing a solicitor achieve? I can't see how that would help. There are no ducks to get in a row.

The OP has paid for some things during this relationship, but she's not a co-owner, nor- assuming- has her salary been paid regularly off a mortgage to show her contribution.

Sadly, women who live with men like this end up with nothing unless them man is kind and generous and perhaps re-mortgages to give her a deposit for her own home.

The OP said she didn't give marriage much thought for years and years. Well, the question is, why is she now?

He could accuse her of being deceitful equally, as she was very happy to live in his home on an undemanding basis and work part time. These conversations needed to happen from the start of their relationship.[/quote]
A solicitor would be qualified to tell the op if she has a claim for a beneficial interest in the property. Unlike some random on the internet.

And RTFT she's already described her financial contributions and how she first brought up marriage years ago.

[quote JinglingHellsBells]@Unlovedandinsecure You sound quite 'demanding'. Telling someone you want to get married after being happy not to be for years, isn't really fair, is it? You want to move the goal posts, but does he?

Can you explain what it is about marriage that you want?

It's not clear.

Is it to show his commitment? Or is it because your insecure position re finances has hit you?

If you are bullying him and being insistent, I can see why he is saying no, because it would get anyone's back if they took that tone.

What's changed with you to make you feel this way about marriage?[/quote]
Sorry, how exactly am I ‘demanding’? Would sincerely love to know? I’d understand that comment after being with someone for a short space of time but waiting for as long as I have is hardly demanding is it? If anything I’ve been extremely patient and undemanding. No expectations of expensive diamonds and big weddings from me, just a cheap, small wedding would be my ideal.

Yep I have just done a module on family homes and often the person not on the deeds can get sone %.

However it costs a lot. But as the law is very uncertain, it's often easier/cheaper for the other party to make you an offer to go away. That's probably the most likely outcome. But that's down the road. The amount depends on what you have paid in over the years or took on other bills.

Maybe I'm being naive here but if you've waited 8 yrs maybe that signalled it wasn't that important after all. So if you suddenly just had enough, maybe he felt surprised and like he was indeed "blackmailed" ... or in other words faced with an ultimatum?

I'd let it cool off and then have a calmer chat where you can both express how you define marriage and what aspect of it is important/scary to you.

@burnoutbabe

Yep I have just done a module on family homes and often the person not on the deeds can get sone %.

However it costs a lot. But as the law is very uncertain, it's often easier/cheaper for the other party to make you an offer to go away. That's probably the most likely outcome. But that's down the road. The amount depends on what you have paid in over the years or took on other bills.

A few of my more savvy friends did this and succeeded with financial payouts. Not easy but worth it.

The more frequently it happens the better the outcomes should become for women who never married but financially (and otherwise) contributed.

@JinglingHellsBells I’ve been very honest in my posts. The point I have made to him is that it is important for our relationship to be ‘official’ and legal as at the moment we have all this shared life and children and yet we aren’t related. If anything happened to either of us then it would fall to our adult child to deal with as NOK. His response is it’s not something he had ever thought about and he has been perfectly happy.

That is where we clash as he was told what I wanted years ago and he couldn’t give any answer as to why he has not either set a date or told me it’s never happening. His latest excuse is Covid - he couldn’t answer me when asked about the years before the pandemic. Though as far as I’m aware (which I told him) marriages were still taking place albeit very small.

I know we can sort out wills etc. but they would entail me accepting never being married and it is something I want. For myriad reasons I’ve always neglected my own needs and don’t wish to do so any longer.

As I’ve said, it just requires a simple yes let’s do it or no, move on. I don’t believe for a minute that a grown man with two decades to make his mind up cannot do so.

For what it’s worth, he seems very content and said he doesn’t want to grow old alone but equally I won’t devote the rest of my life to a man who just wants a girlfriend.

If he told me he didn’t want to grow old alone, I’d tell him it was the registry office or Tinder!

Sorry I meant iht allowance.

@Blossomtoes

Society is set up to allow this to happen to women

Society used to be set up to protect women. Back in the day when it was frowned on to have children outside marriage a woman in this position would have been rare. Now there’s widespread drinking the “piece of paper” koolaid and women are getting shafted.

We need to teach our daughters to be old fashioned and not entertain the idea of having children without marriage.

I saw a history program about marriage . They claimed state getting involved was an attempt to offer more protection to women. Prior to that it was an reglious and community agreement with obligations attached but there were increasing number of disputes whether the marriage has occured as more men tried to get out of their obligations an dit was leaving women and children despitute while courts (possible reglious courts) thrashed out their circumstances.

Obviously it then became a stick to beat women who had kids or just sex ouside marriage leading to potential children outside of marriage.

The CSA might have been a positive thing helping avoid childhood poverty and father walking away but in practise it's just not fit for purpose and socially it seems acceptable for men to just fuck off and contibute next to nothing for their own children.

OP I'd see a solitor see if you have a claim against the house.

If you want to stay try broaching civil parntership to him see if that's acceptable alternative so you have some protection.

Otherwise it's not a bad time to leave - childcare isn't an issue your children seem close to finacial independence, you're working so can perhaps save and qualify for a mortgage still have time to save for a pension and still meet someone who does value you and care enough to think about your future.