Mandatory Covid jabs for health workers

[WinnieSmith]

"Govt ‘absolutely thinking’ about mandatory Covid jabs for health workers, UK vaccine minister says"

www.rt.com/uk/525218-govt-thinking-mandatory-jabs-healthcare/

Should Covid jabs be mandatory for healthcare workers?

IABU - yes
IANBU - no

[quote Tealightsandd]@baldafrique

Unfortunately for the vulnerable in London it's not a small percentage. A whopping 30-40% of care home employees have refused the jab, and a significant percentage of hospital workers too.

Whilst the vulnerable outside of London are safer, it only takes one unvaccinated person to risk killing somebody vulnerable.

Who here would be happy if a loved family member died unnecessarily - because they weren't given safe care?

What is the point of unsafe care. It's hardly care.[/quote]
I'm puzzled again, why is this ?

@TruelyStruttingHotpants

Please RTFT

I already conceded this to @Sirzy

@Tealightsandd do you think the NHS would be safe if it lost 5-10% of its workforce overnight?

I can’t work in ICU unless fully vaccinated against a range of diseases. This concept is already reality for me.

I can choose not to accept those vaccines, but I cannot continue to work in ICU if I do so.

There are lots of conditions that I accept fully as part of the great privilege of my work. Being vaccinated is really not one of the more onerous ones.

@Tealightsandd I agree. I cant get my head around it either really. Though am more sympathetic to my pregnant and breastfeeding colleagues about it. Cant understand the other refusniks (only 3 of them luckily!)

[quote WinnieSmith]@TruelyStruttingHotpants

Please RTFT

I already conceded this to @Sirzy[/quote]
I apologise. I posted before seeing that

@Tealightsandd
Care homes would have to close down then if 30% of their staff got the sack! It's a real shame that the figures are that high in the care sector. A lot higher than the 10% ish NHS then.

[quote confuseddotcomma]@Tealightsandd do you think the NHS would be safe if it lost 5-10% of its workforce overnight?[/quote]
How is safe if they're putting the vulnerable (including the many people with undiagnosed conditions) at risk?

Obviously nothing would happen overnight in any case. There would be a period of transition.

Thank you for doing what you do @MissTrip82 I'm really grateful you and your colleagues.

Like Miss says, there is a precedent. Mandatory vaccination for certain healthcare roles is nothing new.

@TruelyStruttingHotpants

No worries!!

@Tealightsandd

Like Miss says, there is a precedent. Mandatory vaccination for certain healthcare roles is nothing new.

But, at the risk of being accused of being an "anti-vaxxer" - the current mandatory vaccines are not currently in trial until 2023.

I think that since the arrival of covid society has taken a massive interest in understanding viruses and infection and we've seen modern science make great leaps .
We can't go backwards now, it's a new era and moving forward we can't make comparisons to anything from times past .
Of course in this transition period it would be wrong to force people or sack people that disagree with the vaccine but probably when advertising for jobs in certain sectors being vaccinated should be a requirement, just like some jabs are required for travelling.

I'm not excusing the NHS staff who haven't been vaccinated - personally I think they're unwise. But I'm just saying given the quite high levels of staff who haven't had it, overall it's clearly much safer not to risk mass further staff shortages. Which is why this will never happen! Anyone who has ever actually worked in the NHS knows how short staffed we are and that therefore this is an idiotic idea and would actually compromise patients safety

[quote baldafrique]@Tealightsandd
Care homes would have to close down then if 30% of their staff got the sack! It's a real shame that the figures are that high in the care sector. A lot higher than the 10% ish NHS then.[/quote]
Perhaps London's (vaccinated) vulnerable and elderly will have to be rehoused elsewhere then?

Definitely many families will choose a care home outside of London if it's going to be safer for their loved one. Families want to know they can trust it will be safe care.

Which means - by losing residents (death or going to an alternative home), those homes will close down anyway.

Alternatively we could properly fund the care sector (UK wide) - and employ people more suited to the job. Better pay and working conditions to attract suitable caring employees.

@confuseddotcomma

I'm not excusing the NHS staff who haven't been vaccinated - personally I think they're unwise. But I'm just saying given the quite high levels of staff who haven't had it, overall it's clearly much safer not to risk mass further staff shortages. Which is why this will never happen! Anyone who has ever actually worked in the NHS knows how short staffed we are and that therefore this is an idiotic idea and would actually compromise patients safety

They need to offer incentives to attract more suitable staff. Housing allowances, flexible hours, whatever.

Whether staff shortage or unvaccinated staff member, the care is unsafe.

Patients have a right to safe care.
Hospitals and care homes have a duty of care.

[quote WinnieSmith]@Rupertpenrysmistress

However what about the public who refuse the covid vaccine with no good reason. Can I refuse to treat those?

Obviously not - in the same way as treatment isn't withheld for those who smoke and drink to excess.[/quote]
Smokers and drinkers do not pose a health risk to those treating them though do they??

[quote baldafrique]@Tealightsandd I agree. I cant get my head around it either really. Though am more sympathetic to my pregnant and breastfeeding colleagues about it. Cant understand the other refusniks (only 3 of them luckily!)[/quote]
@baldafrique

I understand in those cases. There are some valid reasons for exemption. They are a minority though and where possible should be redeployed (temporarily or permanently depending on the circumstances)..

No my opinion when vaccines are mandatory there is something wrong in the world . For me I’ll have whatever jab you want to get this shit show over but do I think it should be mandatory fuck no.

I think there’s a case for evaluating the relative risks and benefits and changing contracts to require it for certain roles. As has been pointed out, there is evidence the vaccines reduce transmission, both in symptomatic and a symptomatic cases.

But transmission risk can also be reduced with strong adherence to good practice - some of which requires more investment in staff, training, oversight and equipment than some companies are prepared to make - that should be required and enforced before mandatory vaccinations evaluated and allowed.

I think OP’s point about the absence of data on long term effects is relevant, especially when talking about requiring this in roles that are generally pretty poorly paid.

@Imnothereforthedrama

No my opinion when vaccines are mandatory there is something wrong in the world . For me I’ll have whatever jab you want to get this shit show over but do I think it should be mandatory fuck no.

I tend to agree. Vaccine passports are ID cards by another name.

twitter.com/InstituteGC/status/1361357381263896579

@Parker231

Definitely yes - patients have a right to be safe when being treated. If those staff don’t understand their responsibilities, they are in the wrong job

So what about all the other patients? Members of staff at the TOP too?

It can’t be one rule for one.....

Where do you think this money will come from? Do you realise NHS staff haven't had a real terms pay rise or even in line with inflation in a very long time?
This is all just a pipe dream from some very poorly informed people sadly.

Alternatively we could properly fund the care sector (UK wide) - and employ people more suited to the job. Better pay and working conditions to attract suitable caring employees.

Well yes, this. If everyone wants the risks to be taken seriously, then it needs to be across the board really, and all standards improved, not a pick and choose situation.

Currently there are two requirements to fill to be a care worker, no criminal record (barring certain types of crime after so long) and having the covid jab. That's it. Not even the flu jab is mandatory, and in my area, only became free for care workers recently.

Just because someone has had a covid jab, it doesn't indicate their suitability or aptitude for doing the job, but that's all that's required. No training.
However, if you improve training and staffing levels, which have been a bigger concern, for much longer within the care sector, then that's going to cost money, higher fees and higher taxes to support that. No one really wants that do they, but the Covid jab is essentially already paid for, and an easy way to show 'support' for the elderly and vulnerable in care homes, without it costing any more than what would already be spent on vaccinating the whole population.

I'd hope anyone who is supporting this, should it happen, would then turn their attention to the state of the social care sector and the risks posed by the way things are currently done, which have been around for much longer, and which largely, are ignored.

No. A vaccine is an invasive procedure and for this particular vaccine the longer term effects are unknown simply because it is so new. Everyone should have the choice on whether to have it based on health rather than coercion, especially for those who are already working in these roles.

Absolutely not. No one has the right to impose what you get injected with. If someone wants to protect themselves they can get the jab. Look up Lisa Shaw for why someone may decide to not get the vaccine.

There is already vaccination requirements for NHS staff, so a very much needed precedent has been set. This should be added to those requirements.