Mandatory Covid jabs for health workers

[WinnieSmith]

"Govt ‘absolutely thinking’ about mandatory Covid jabs for health workers, UK vaccine minister says"

www.rt.com/uk/525218-govt-thinking-mandatory-jabs-healthcare/

Should Covid jabs be mandatory for healthcare workers?

IABU - yes
IANBU - no

A friend of mine has just gone for an NHS lab job, part of which was ensuring they had up to date jabs.

I think if someone can't or won't have the jab but, for example, is in a role providing care for someone like my son, who is 10, cev and unvaccinated, then I think we should have the right to say that we don't want that person working with him.

@baldafrique

My concern is that the NHS cant really afford to have current employees leave clinical roles - we are short staffed enough as it is!

But then if they aren’t thinking about keeping those in their care safe are they really the best people for the role?

@jennyblake
I'm a vaccinated NHS clinician myself but would be concerned about losing good doctors and nurses from clinical work if they arent vaccinated due to being pregnant, breastfeeding etc. Sure they can be removed from patient facing work but that's a huge waste of skill and expertise. Some wards are under staffed enough as it is. I reckon about 80% of my colleagues are vaccinated currently, hopefully will be more now the guidance has changed for pregnant and breastfeeding women tho some are still cautious. Interestingly there is no mandatory requirement for flu vaccine (though should be probably!)

Yes.

@Sirzy
Sure but you have to have safe minimum staffing numbers...its a really tricky one but the NHS isnt exactly overflowing with clinicians and there are too many unfilled vacancies as it is. I think the new guidance for pregnant and breastfeeding women will increase vaccine uptake which is great.

An unvaccinated health care worker is a risk to themselves and to those they are caring for.

I do not think they should be forced to take a vaccine. But it would be a reasonable adjustment to move them to another role if they refuse. This might be a less well paid role or one with fewer overtime/promotion prospects.

We do this already with eg pregnant workers who can no longer safely carry out the role for which they were recruited. Or with people who become medically unfit to carry out that role.

And I think employers should have the right to refuse to employ people who may present a risk to patients/residents. Why should their right to choose trump patient/resident rights to be cared for in the safest possible way.

What are we meaning by mandatory anyhow? Essential for new NHS joiners or dismissal if opt not to have the vaccine? The latter will never happen (rightly or wrongly). The former could. I do think flu vaccine needs to be treated the same. Currently VERY optional for NHS clinician. Noone even checks!

@baldafrique

What about pregnant women or younger women who may be worried about future fertility (both reasons some of my NHS colleagues have not had the vaccine yet)? Also the flu jab isnt mandatory - should that be too?

They are now vaccinating pregnant women. There is no evidence to suggest it's unsafe in pregnancy, nor that it can impact on fertility.

I think it's reasonable to expect care and healthcare workers to be vaccinated - I thought they already did have to have certain vaccines.

However, it can't be imposed retrospectively, I think that would be unreasonable and a potential breach of employment law.

So only for new recruits. Which is less problematic for care workers as they will generally be moving around private employers, whereas once you're in the NHS you may stay there.

I also think it depends on your job role. You don't need it if you push papers around in a back office. Different if you work in A&E.

@dinpips
Sure, and that should definitely increase uptake.l, which is fab. However some will still be cautious I think.

Well it would depend on what you feel is more important.

If person A was highly qualified but had not had the jab (for whatever reason), and person B was less qualified but had been jabbed who would you choose to care for your loved one...the person with the right skills or the person who had been jabbed?

No absolutely not!

Yes in the same way that other vaccines are already a requirement for some roles.

The issue with pregnant women etc is a bit of a red herring as accommodation can be made for them to have it later. People making a choice not to meet the requirements of any job or with health issues that make them unable to meet those requirements face the same obstacles in a daily basis. They and their employee come to an acceptable compromise. In the grand scheme of things that is not a great logistical issue.

No!
The vaccine is designed to protect the person who has it.

No way should we force this!

As a frontline nurse I think it should be mandatory. However what about the public who refuse the covid vaccine with no good reason. Can I refuse to treat those?They put me and other patients at risk.

NHS staff uptake has been reported at about 90% in my area I know 6 out of 40 have refused it, it frustrates me as these are the very staff who through the pandemic were terrified for their lives, signed off sick refusing to move to other areas. Most of us in the NHS have patients best interest at heart. We had an outbreak on our ward and it was devastating as patients died.

I think it should be mandatory and if you refuse you can't work patient facing, I am sure would see a U-turn.

No. This sector is suffering enough is it not without enough staff.

@Rupertpenrysmistress

However what about the public who refuse the covid vaccine with no good reason. Can I refuse to treat those?

Obviously not - in the same way as treatment isn't withheld for those who smoke and drink to excess.

This is hypocritical from the government. We are told that the Covid vaccine doesn't stop transmission so what does it matter if healthcare workers have it or not?

@millymollymoomoo

The vaccine is designed to protect the person who has it

This seems to be overlooked again and again - there's still no evidence that the vaccine prevents the spread of the disease - simply lessens the symptoms of those who get it

@Rosieposy89

This is hypocritical from the government. We are told that the Covid vaccine doesn't stop transmission so what does it matter if healthcare workers have it or not?

^ this

[quote WinnieSmith]@millymollymoomoo

The vaccine is designed to protect the person who has it

This seems to be overlooked again and again - there's still no evidence that the vaccine prevents the spread of the disease - simply lessens the symptoms of those who get it[/quote]
There is evidence being vaccinated reduces spread

@Sirzy

Link / evidence, please?

I understand that if the symptoms (e.g. sneezing or coughing) are reduced there is less chance the disease will be spread but I have yet to see evidence that the droplets that are expelled contain less of the virus

www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1112

my dsis has to have the hep b she either does it or she cant work whats the difference

Flu kills a lot of people and flu jabs aren't mandatory for health care staff. They're offered to them, which I think is the only thing they can do with the covid vaccine. If they make it mandatory, they'll lose a lot of staff and the care sector simply can't afford that. I hope that most care workers can see the benefit of having the jab though.