Mandatory Covid jabs for health workers

[WinnieSmith]

"Govt ‘absolutely thinking’ about mandatory Covid jabs for health workers, UK vaccine minister says"

www.rt.com/uk/525218-govt-thinking-mandatory-jabs-healthcare/

Should Covid jabs be mandatory for healthcare workers?

IABU - yes
IANBU - no

Where is the care in putting your vulnerable patients and residents at unnecessary risk?

Why should families lose a loved one because a hospital or care home failed in its duty of care? There is a justifiable expectation that people will be safe in hospital or a care home.

This is not a unique situation. Job roles sometimes experience changed requirements after new legislation. Sometimes that means redundancies if somebody is no longer able or fit to perform their role.

It's nothing new. Why special exemption or treatment in this case?

If somebody in a health or care role isn't willing to do all that's needed to protect and keep safe the vulnerable, they're in the wrong job.

*Why special exceptions here?

Do you not think the vulnerable have the right to safe care?

Where is the duty of care to the vulnerable?*

Very valid questions. Just impossible ones for a free society to answer I feel. Luckily I don't have to answer them myself because it this does tie me up in knots.

It's not about anybody being forced to anything. If they aren't willing to do what's needed to protect, keep safe, and care for the vulnerable, then they're in the wrong job in the first place.

This highlights the need to offer higher pay and better working conditions in the sector - and the necessity to stop offloading unwilling and reluctant jobcentre applicants into a role they are patently unsuited to.

We need people with an aptitude and motivation of care working in these jobs.

It will never happen to existing NHS employees

@baldafrique

It will never happen to existing NHS employees

Why do you think this?

@WinnieSmith
Because of the huge existing recruitment crisis across the NHS. They simply cannot afford to lose staff from clinical positions. I also dont think legally this can be enforced once someone is already in post. Not saying I agree with people refusing the vaccine, it just cannot be enforced for those already in post.

@baldafrique

It will never happen to existing NHS employees

Why?

Why do they get special treatment?

So lots of legal action potential.

Against the NHS from bereaved families for failing in their duty of care to vulnerable patients.

AND from the many ex employees of various industries, who over the years have had to find alternative employment - after legislation changed their job requirements. From licencing and registration of various schemes to training and passing tests.

@Sirzy

Fact check: Scientists do not yet know whether the COVID-19 vaccine reduces transmission of the virus

www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-transmission-idUSKBN29N1UH

In health care settings when working directly with vulnerable people (especially if those vulnerable patients/residents are those more likely to not be able to have the vaccine or for it to not work as well for them) then yes, I'd suggest it ought to be mandatory.

For roles without direct contact with patients/residents, advised but not mandatory perhaps.

Without trading that article it is from January, an awful lot has changed since then! The article I posted from the BMJ was from April

@Tealightsandd See reasons above. It's not about preferential treatment. It's about safe staffing levels. Likewise the care sector - they're fucked enough as it is without dismissing staff for not having the vaccine. I am amazed when colleagues dont want the vaccine (luckily it's a very small percentage) but I dont think there is a way around it.

[quote baldafrique]@WinnieSmith
Because of the huge existing recruitment crisis across the NHS. They simply cannot afford to lose staff from clinical positions. I also dont think legally this can be enforced once someone is already in post. Not saying I agree with people refusing the vaccine, it just cannot be enforced for those already in post.[/quote]
If it's a clinical role and they genuinely struggle to recruit, then that's an excellent example of shortage occupation for immigration visa purposes.

It's concerning that somebody working with - supposedly caring for - vulnerable patients is content to expose those vulnerable patients to needless risk.

Definitely in the wrong job.

Genuinely curious... So non uptake of vaccine in patient facing NHS staff is anecdotally running between 5-10%. This is the same in doctors, nurses, allied staff. So would you really feel safe being treated in an NHS which has lost 1 in 20 of these staff? Is that really safer than being treated by someone not vaccinated?! These are not jobs you can train people for quickly...

[quote WinnieSmith]@Rosieposy89

This is hypocritical from the government. We are told that the Covid vaccine doesn't stop transmission so what does it matter if healthcare workers have it or not?

^ this[/quote]
Not true. There have been many reports over the last few weeks/months than transmission is reduced, often greatly, by the vaccines. I'm not posting sources but it's been in the media quite a lot so,would be easy enough to,find

www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1112

@baldafrique

Unfortunately for the vulnerable in London it's not a small percentage. A whopping 30-40% of care home employees have refused the jab, and a significant percentage of hospital workers too.

Whilst the vulnerable outside of London are safer, it only takes one unvaccinated person to risk killing somebody vulnerable.

Who here would be happy if a loved family member died unnecessarily - because they weren't given safe care?

What is the point of unsafe care. It's hardly care.

[quote WinnieSmith]@Sirzy

Fact check: Scientists do not yet know whether the COVID-19 vaccine reduces transmission of the virus

www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-transmission-idUSKBN29N1UH[/quote]
That’s from January - I think we’ve moved on a bit since then.

@Sirzy

Fair enough, you've changed my mind!

Votes ...

@WinnieSmith

Votes ...

I assume the voters read your OP - asking us to choose YABU if we supported mandatory jabs?

Good if that's the case - restores a little bit of faith in human nature, if the majority do want to commit to the duty of care to the vulnerable.

Yes, doctors, nurses, carers and staff in residential care settings should have the vaccine.

It's common sense to protect the vulnerable people one works with.

We have the choice to have the vaccine or not. A choice based on your personal opinion not what job you do

[quote WinnieSmith]@Sirzy

Fact check: Scientists do not yet know whether the COVID-19 vaccine reduces transmission of the virus

www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-transmission-idUSKBN29N1UH[/quote]
That is from January. Since then things have moved on a lot. We now have real world data from all over the world (and Scotland )

Also - the evidence cited here gives good evidence that if you are vaccinated and then have a symptomatic infection, you are less likely to spread it. This is totally irrelevant for NHS staff. As soon as we are symptomatic we are off work waiting for a test. So the evidence we need for this to even be a relevant question is, does the vaccine reduce transmission for people who are asymptomatic. I mean, it likely does, but I think its interesting that so many people are clamouring for this on the basis of no relevant evidence