Mandatory Covid jabs for health workers

[WinnieSmith]

"Govt ‘absolutely thinking’ about mandatory Covid jabs for health workers, UK vaccine minister says"

www.rt.com/uk/525218-govt-thinking-mandatory-jabs-healthcare/

Should Covid jabs be mandatory for healthcare workers?

IABU - yes
IANBU - no

Yellow fever vaccines are not mandatory for GP’s or any other Dr in the UK.

However, I am a doctor and I and all other doctors have been required to have certain vaccines- e.g. hepatitis b- in order to work in any NHS hospital or GP for some time. Only those with a valid medical reason for exemption are not required to have these vaccinations. So the idea of mandatory vaccination is not new and is already in practice in the UK.

Difference between your pay jacks11 and a hca is not comparable though is it. Might be worth more of a thought if you’re not on 15k a year and being asked to take an experimental vaccine with no comeback if it harms you because of pharmaceutical indemnity . Maybe more effective not to discharge Covid patients into care homes and provide adequate ppe rather than a ducking apron to those on the actual front line not sat in an office taking telephone calls.

@Iquitit You sound like a wonderful care worker. Id have no worries if my DM was in a home you were working in.

@mamabali

Tealightsandd

Perhaps all those care givers / teachers/ nurses / doctors/ porters etc etc who died or got long covid through their line of work should sue.

Perhaps all those whose relatives died in care homes due to people covid positive being discharged there should sue.

There are a lot of people who could sue.

It's already being discussed.

The government is involved in talks with hospital trusts and the BMA to agree compensation.

I don't know if any of the teaching unions are doing anything but definitely the NHS is.

Obviously the past year is slightly different. It was an emergency situation. Now we're in a different position. We have vaccines.

Where are they then? Why aren't they out there filling the gaps?

Iquitit You're doing the government's job for them if you keep insisting it's impossible to increase pay and offer better working conditions. It's not. Where there's a will there's a way. When they want to, they find money. Like they did - billions - for ineffective PPE that couldn't be used and the failed test, track, and trace system.

Yes we need to treat care staff better (but also make sure those doing the job are suitable for the role, which btw is not directed at you as you sound very dedicated). But also yes those staff have a responsibility to the very vulnerable people they are meant to be caring for. It is right that Covid vaccines should be a job requirement. The home has a duty of care.

Absolutely not! I have just been sacked for declining. First it was social care, now it's NHS, next it will be your children. Wake up and stand up for our and your children's rights!!

Teaslightsandd

Already discussed? I know we’re going off topic - but death in duty payment due to COVID will not cover lost earnings. It was not ‘agreed’ by the BMA- they are continuing to lobby the government.

@Sushirolls are you saying you've been fired from the NHS for refusing the Covid jab? Were you on a substantive contract? With no other factors (already on a disciplinary or performance plan?).

I am just unaware of any NHS trust where existing staff need a Covid jab is essential yet but maybe I'm wrong?

@Tealightsandd

Where are they then? Why aren't they out there filling the gaps?

Iquitit You're doing the government's job for them if you keep insisting it's impossible to increase pay and offer better working conditions. It's not. Where there's a will there's a way. When they want to, they find money. Like they did - billions - for ineffective PPE that couldn't be used and the failed test, track, and trace system.

Yes we need to treat care staff better (but also make sure those doing the job are suitable for the role, which btw is not directed at you as you sound very dedicated). But also yes those staff have a responsibility to the very vulnerable people they are meant to be caring for. It is right that Covid vaccines should be a job requirement. The home has a duty of care.

I'm not insisting that it's impossible to increase pay and conditions for care staff, you say where there's a will there's a way, well there's your problem, there's no will by anyone who can do anything to change it.

People taking the stance you have about care workers, and vaccination, and not so much calling for it but talking about duty of care and them being selfish, in the wrong job etc etc, have done exactly what the government hoped they'd do - got hung up on that and not, or blatantly refusing to see the rest of it that has already caused far more damage and deaths but is systematic and ultimately issues the government must sort out.
Here you are telling me that those are separate issues, that they have a time to be discussed etc etc - when actually they're very relevant to this conversation, because they have already caused deaths, the duty of care has already been failed miserably, fixing these issues should be way, way ahead of no jab, no job, but people like you ensure it's not by shutting down the conversation in favour of selfish carers failing in their duty of care, can't you see by basically ignoring and discrediting people like me you're contributing to these issues never ever being fixed?

The staff at floor level get the blame, but we're powerless to change anything, you're actively encouraging that.

[quote MercyBooth]@Iquitit You sound like a wonderful care worker. Id have no worries if my DM was in a home you were working in. [/quote]
Thank you Mercy, but honestly, as care workers you can only do so much 😐 the care providers and the government bodies like CQC have so much power to make things better but people don't want to see it, they want to rant on about care workers failing their duty of care instead.

It's like being worried about the lion attacking you when there's a couple of angry t-rex behind it, it really is. I do my best, most of our staff do, but we feel like there's no point, everyone in our home is vaccinated - we haven't suddenly got more staff, or better equipment, and we've got unvaccinated relatives coming into the building, and although asked not to, kissing and cuddling their relatives because it's been too long and telling us it's they're right.
Apparently relatives have the right to put me, and other residents at risk, and that's fine, we can run out of PPE, or have no hot water in an entire area of the building, and that's fine, no one wants to talk about fixing those kinds of issues, they want to talk about selfish carers and vaccination.

I'm about done in after this year. Would suggest the people who feel so strongly about it get themselves a job in care to cover the shortfall.

@Sushirolls

Absolutely not! I have just been sacked for declining. First it was social care, now it's NHS, next it will be your children. Wake up and stand up for our and your children's rights!!

Sacked from what, and why did you decline?

@mamabali

Teaslightsandd

Already discussed? I know we’re going off topic - but death in duty payment due to COVID will not cover lost earnings. It was not ‘agreed’ by the BMA- they are continuing to lobby the government.

I know nothing's been agreed. Yet. Like I said in talks.

I'm going to be very honest Iquitit I've changed my mind. I hope you're not really a care worker. I hope you're actually an anti vaxxer claiming to be a care worker. I'm not saying anything you are but my goodness do I wish that was the case!

I wouldn't want someone with your attitude, and determination to see attacks where there aren't any, looking after someone I cared about. That attitude (and SushiRolls) is exactly why it is so urgent that we pay more and offer better conditions - because we need genuinely caring staff who wouldn't dream of going in unvaccinated and putting the lives of the most vulnerable unnecessarily at risk.

For myself, I've planned long in advance. I'm already a member of Dignitas (which I know is a privilege as it's not cheap) but it's not just about me. I have loved ones who might one day need care. As will most people. I wouldn't want to leave them at their most vulnerable in a home with staff refusing the vaccine - or angrily attacking family for having that concern.

You don't solve one issue by ignoring or denying another - although it's a useful tool to manipulate people into not calling for a necessary change to the job requirements.

Like it or not, there is (thankfully) a legal duty of care to the vulnerable. Who - unlike the staff - do not have a choice. Staff can choose not to get vaccinated. The vulnerable cannot choose not to be vulnerable and in need of care.

It's not ok to say, well that's bad, i.e. what Iquitit is saying - that care home 'care' is bad and unsafe... so we'll just make it even worse. Nope. Not ok.

@Tealightsandd

Also, sometimes the problem is being too hesitant (government and employers). Obviously this isn't always the case, not by any means, but sometimes just sometimes it's being too soft that is actually the problem.

Just like children need firm boundaries instead of parents being their best friends, so sometimes do employees.

Give much leeway and people take advantage. It's not always consciously, but when people are presented with no questions asked, no room for argument conditions, they generally accept them far more readily than when an employer goes to them begging and saying pretty please. Pandering can backfire.

People don't respect lack of authority to that extent.

This is the key issue.

@Tealightsandd i think what you have just said to @Iquitit is disgusting. Shes just listed a whole no. of other issues that can impact hygiene like no hot water yet you have ignored the risk thats caused by these issues which proves health is not your motive here. Its something else. It comes across as a bit sinister. Guess you will have to NC again.

I stand by what i said. I would have no qualms about @Iquitit caring for my DM

Good care workers are like gold dust. Hard to find and she sounds like a bloody decent one.

Not surprised though that some think residents going without hot water isnt an issue. Why have you ignored this. It creates huge issues in a home. When i was working in one we found a resident who had pooed herself in her bed overnight. It was everywhere sheets clothes all over her, under her fingernails. Would have been even more of a nightmare to deal with without hot water. Hot water is fucking important. Or do bacterial infections not matter as long as its not Covid.

Clap for key workers has morphed into crap on key workers.

You're doing the same thing as she did Mercy repeatedly ignoring that I have acknowledged the need for significant improvements and funding for the sector.

You and she seem determined to misinterpet and misunderstand (wilfully or not, I don't know).

That is a huge concern. If there's staff in care homes with that level of communication issues - failure or refusal to actually listen to, read properly, and understand what is being said to them.

I'm just a stranger on the internet and it won't harm me - but when dealing with the most vulnerable in our society, good communication is vital.

She is saying that care homes are unsafe. Due to water issues (lack of hot water), badly paid demoralised staff, and poor working (and living conditions).

Her answer to the unsafe conditions is to insist it's a good idea to add to the unsafe conditions by having unvaccinated staff 'caring' for the vulnerable residents.

I'd rather all the necessary measures were taken to make it a safe environment.

I'm not sure how or why she thinks that making a bad situation worse helps.

Also Mercy please stop accusing me of saying things I haven't.

And please don't say you care about healthcare workers. You have been quite vocal about your belief that doctors and nurses are 'gaslighting' the public.

No i said The GOVERNMENT have been gaslighting the public. And ppl like Chris Hopson who is a bloody pen pusher. There was a frontline NHS worker on ITV News on the 18th January who said the reason why so many ppl are in hospital was due to rule breaking. She cant possibly know what every patient was doing in the weeks leading up to their hospital admission. So yes i did object to that. And i made a note of the date (18 Jan) because i knew someone would come along and try to twist things. Proved right again.

This article is from the 18th December The day before the GOVERNMENT "cancelled" Christmas. And one month before ITV filmed the segment i refer to in this post on the 18th Jan.

www.hsj.co.uk/patient-safety/covid-infections-caught-in-hospital-rise-by-a-third-in-one-week/7029211.article

There has been a lot of blaming of the public. Unfairly in a lot of cases.

I NEVER said doctors and nurses are gaslighting the public. I did say that blue tick medics were blaming the public on Twitter The blue tickers who have book releases coming soon or already out.

You're doing the same thing as she did

Yeah we are both wrong and you are right

The vaccine is to protect me, not to protect others from me. If you don't want to catch it from an HCP, have the vaccine yourself!it shouldn't be mandatory and neither should the flu vaccine because it's every year and not very effective.
At least hep b is a once in a lifetime course and I'm far more likely to catch it from a patient's blood than they are from mine

And what about immune suppressed CEV patients - even if fully vaccinated, it's likely not to have worked (estimates have been as low as 13%, but one hopes it's not as bad as that)

Do they not merit every possible mitigation around them?

@raffegiraffe - not everyone can have the vaccine. My friend with cancer has been advised by her consultant to not have the vaccine.
She deserves to be safe when having her treatment. She works and can’t hide away and doesn’t need any further risks to her health from unvaccinated people.

@Tealightsandd

It's not ok to say, well that's bad, i.e. what Iquitit is saying - that care home 'care' is bad and unsafe... so we'll just make it even worse. Nope. Not ok.

No, I'm really not.

I'm saying that you are not going to fix the covid risks in care just by vaccinating all staff and that's it. I've also said I'd support a Vaccination program for care workers alongside other measures, and that those measures should be of more of a priority than mandatory Vaccination, because they have a bigger impact, like adequate PPE and hot running water, and enough staff - they could have been implemented right at the start, before a vaccine was even thought of, but here we are a year later facing the same stuff and people like you still don't want to talk about it, you don't want to hear about it and would rather call me a bad carer and an anti vaxxer in disguise in an attempt to discredit me, than actually listen to someone who is experiencing this every day.
There are more risks posed than unvaccinated staff where covid is concerned, but you don't want to talk about all the risks, clearly, as you keep shutting that down, you aren't interested in the things lacking that are posing risks and where the government and care providers are failing in your favourite phrase 'duty of care', you only want to talk about people in the wrong job and care workers lacking in duty of care, not all the contributory factors that add to that risk for every single vulnerable person.

But you carry on making out I'm a bad carer and an anti vaxxer if that suits your agenda, because I'm neither of those things, I'm happily vaccinated, and a good carer, trying to bring to light the systematic failures that pose great risks - and it will always continue when people like me are discredited by people like you.

Well done you.