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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Mandatory Covid jabs for health workers

318 replies

WinnieSmith · 30/05/2021 16:22

"Govt ‘absolutely thinking’ about mandatory Covid jabs for health workers, UK vaccine minister says"

www.rt.com/uk/525218-govt-thinking-mandatory-jabs-healthcare/

Should Covid jabs be mandatory for healthcare workers?

IABU - yes
IANBU - no

Mandatory Covid jabs for health workers
OP posts:
raffegiraffe · 01/06/2021 16:34

This reliance on safe and unsafe is a fallacy. I still don't think it means hcps should be mandated to get it. I've had both, willingly. My choice. Covid is different to hep b, the most mandated vaccine ( and if you don't respond to it, they still let you work)
I don't think anyone has a right to safety. Not me, not you.

Iquitit · 01/06/2021 16:48

@Tealightsandd

She is saying that care homes are unsafe. Due to water issues (lack of hot water), badly paid demoralised staff, and poor working (and living conditions).

Her answer to the unsafe conditions is to insist it's a good idea to add to the unsafe conditions by having unvaccinated staff 'caring' for the vulnerable residents.

I'd rather all the necessary measures were taken to make it a safe environment.

I'm not sure how or why she thinks that making a bad situation worse helps.

I'm, I think you're the one with the communication problem ........

No where have I said that vaccinations shouldn't be happening, in fact I've said I'd support it as part of a whole overhaul - to which you've accused me of being a bad carer and an anti vaxxer.

But that I also have concerns that the issues I've tried to raise and been ignored by you, are being sidelined, yet again, in favour of a big song and dance about vaccinated or unvaccinated staff. So nothing is going to improve, because yet again, no one is listening.
Yes, I believe that the systematic failures around covid still happening need to be righted before we start taking people out of care homes because they're not vaccinated. That doesn't make me an anti vaxxer nor a bad carer, nor ignoring the vaccination issue.

I also have concerns that there will be a crisis as many leave the sector, leaving people like me able to command a higher wage (great!) Because I'm vaccinated, but also making bad carers, who happen to be vaccinated, in demand too. That is not a good way forward for care.
Care will become more unsafe and less person centred with less staff, and that's not going to be a good thing.

But you're not genuinely interested in a conversation about that, About a real duty of care, you basically want to bitch about those unvaccinated care workers and that's it, throwing around terms like duty of care to make yourself sound important - as I've said before, you really don't have a clue what you're talking about, but worse, clearly you're not willing to listen either to where doc is being massively failed and what we can do about that.

Keep banging your selfish carers drum.

Tealightsandd · 01/06/2021 16:58

You are accusing me of saying things I haven't and ignoring things I haven't. No idea why. Particularly as it seems that we are in agreement afterall.

Tealightsandd · 01/06/2021 16:59

No where have I said that vaccinations shouldn't be happening, in fact I've said I'd support it as part of a whole overhaul

And then we are in agreement.

Iquitit · 01/06/2021 17:10

@Tealightsandd

You are accusing me of saying things I haven't and ignoring things I haven't. No idea why. Particularly as it seems that we are in agreement afterall.
Which is why I presume you said you agreed with me a few pages back and then started going on about how I'm ignoring one problem, and how you wished I was an anti vaxxer in disguise as we don't need carers like me in care homes!

I haven't changed my stance, I don't know why you seem to think I'm an anti vaxxer trying to say I'm a carer and seeing attacks where there aren't.

BipolarSunset · 01/06/2021 17:10

Absolutely not.

The vaccine is there to protect those who take it. I am unvaccinated and could still catch covid from someone that's had the vaccine.

The main point of this vaccine is to stop people from getting seriously ill and/or dying. They can still catch covid and pass along.

Making this 'unlicensed' vaccine a necessity for a job will not help our already struggling NHS. Valuable staff will leave.

Tealightsandd · 01/06/2021 17:19

I'm sorry if I misunderstood any of your posts Iquitit. It seemed like you were accusing me of not caring about the other issues in social care - when I have made clear repeatedly that I do care very much. Perhaps we both misunderstood each other. It's a shame to argue if we're on the same side. I'm sure you're a good carer. You do a very underappreciated job in very challenging circumstances.

ThornAmongstRoses · 01/06/2021 19:29

I imagine there aren’t that many carers/nurses/doctors refusing the jab anyway.

On the ward I work on there are about 45 staff members and off those, only 1 has chosen not to have the vaccine.

I really don’t think it’s something that needs to be turned into a massive issue.

OhWhyNot · 01/06/2021 19:48

No

But I know in our trust staff are being moved around. New staff from some agencies have to have been vaccinated

Our department as I know other keeps records who has/when who hasn’t. They get pointless videos sent to them to watch Hmm

Iquitit · 01/06/2021 20:04

@Tealightsandd

I'm sorry if I misunderstood any of your posts Iquitit. It seemed like you were accusing me of not caring about the other issues in social care - when I have made clear repeatedly that I do care very much. Perhaps we both misunderstood each other. It's a shame to argue if we're on the same side. I'm sure you're a good carer. You do a very underappreciated job in very challenging circumstances.
Thank you.

I would support a Vaccination program for care workers, to protect us and the people we care for, not just for covid but for other illnesses.
But not one that starts with a very new vaccine, made mandatory in an industry where there had been no expectation of any vaccine protection ever before, 6 months in to the vaccine being released and imposed in a way that means you lose your job if you don't.
There needs to be reassurance, training and encouragement at this stage, rather than enforcement.
It's an entirely new concept to many in care, as it's not an expectation you go into the job with.

There are also other, more important aspects of infection control as a whole to address before we should even reach the stage of people losing jobs if they refuse to be vaccinated.
Those aspects have, are still, and will in the future, cost lives and I do feel that this frenzy around care workers not being vaccinated is drawing away from that, and that those things will continue, regardless of the vaccination status of care workers, but that people will think it's all ok because their loved ones are cared for by vaccinated workers.

I also feel that we don't even have a true picture of refusal Vs not vaccinated. You can't get the vaccine if you're within 4 weeks of a positive covid test for example, or for other temporary reasons, are the figures of non vaccinated care workers actually refusals? Or are they simply care workers unable to be vaccinated when it was offered, fully intended to be vaccinated but are included in the non vaccinated data, and it's assumed as refusal, which is giving an untrue higher number, which adds weight to the make it mandatory now argument. All I can find is 'unvaccinated'. Vs vaccinated - no breakdown of why these people aren't vaccinated.

I also feel that forcing this through at this stage, without any other measures will lead to care workers leaving or being sacked - I didn't mean to be snippy when I said where are all these people who are vaccinated and have an aptitude for care, but the question does beg an answer when we are already facing a shortfall of staff, why aren't these people coming into care? Or staying? My personal opinion is because of the pay, conditions and lack of training, but also because we've taken a hammering over the last year, had to deal with situations like I've described around IC and the only response to that from care providers and governing bodies is to introduce a mandatory Vaccination - no plans to improve anything else.
I do feel this whole situation is working to that advantage, it's got people talking about care workers being selfish and failing in their doc by not having a vaccination, and the government can make vaccination mandatory, show they've done something and then nothing else gets addressed.

I felt you were shutting down any conversation around the other things that need to happen in order to ensure people are safe in favour of keep repeating how people who haven't been vaccinated are in the wrong job.

I think ultimately, before we reach the stage where it's no jab, no job, other things need to be addressed, training for care workers and information and ensuring PPE and basic standards are met first. My fear is that with this argument about care workers and vaccination being at the forefront, that's going to be sidelined, forgotten about and nothing will change.

MercyBooth · 01/06/2021 21:10

Brilliant posts @Iquitit

Sushirolls · 01/06/2021 22:10

[quote NerrSnerr]@Sushirolls are you saying you've been fired from the NHS for refusing the Covid jab? Were you on a substantive contract? With no other factors (already on a disciplinary or performance plan?).

I am just unaware of any NHS trust where existing staff need a Covid jab is essential yet but maybe I'm wrong? [/quote]
No I don't work for the nhs any longer. I now work in social care - well, for a couple more weeks, until my notice of dismissal ends.

Tealightsandd · 02/06/2021 00:21

I also feel that we don't even have a true picture of refusal Vs not vaccinated.

It's mainly an issue in London. 1 in 5 care staff in London have refused it. That's a significant proportion. When it's a lower number (most of the rest of the country) it won't be quite such a risk to the vulnerable residents, but I hope you can see how unsafe it could be for vulnerable residents in London?

I felt you were shutting down any conversation around the other things that need to happen in order to ensure people are safe in favour of keep repeating how people who haven't been vaccinated are in the wrong job.

No that's definitely not something I want to do. I agree with you about the issues. You're right it needs changing. I just want Covid vaccines to be included in that change. Absolutely not instead of or to distract from the rest.

Tealightsandd · 02/06/2021 00:24

I think ultimately, before we reach the stage where it's no jab, no job, other things need to be addressed, training for care workers and information and ensuring PPE and basic standards are met first.

Yes this is urgent.

Lucidas · 02/06/2021 03:55

2 billion people have had one vaccine dose across the world. 75% of the UK adult population . The majority of senior politicians, leaders and heads of state, fully vaccinated.

But somehow this minority of care home workers and HCPs are the enlightened ones, right to be terrified of the vaccine, at odds with the rest of society, at the frontline in having to take a vaccine that barely anyone else has....

Sell me the argument from freedom of choice and bodily autonomy, sure. I might be more convinced. But start talking about ‘unlicensed’ vaccines, ‘long-term effects’, and it’s just the same uneducated anti-vax nonsense masquerading as concern for HCPs.

Iquitit · 02/06/2021 10:33

I also feel that we don't even have a true picture of refusal Vs not vaccinated.

It's mainly an issue in London. 1 in 5 care staff in London have refused it. That's a significant proportion. When it's a lower number (most of the rest of the country) it won't be quite such a risk to the vulnerable residents, but I hope you can see how unsafe it could be for vulnerable residents in London?

Yes, a high proportion of unvaccinated workers would be unsafe. But I think we need to be sure of why they're unvaccinated, is there a breakdown of that? Or is it just being assumed that the 1 in 5 are refusing, on anecdotal evidence? There are other reasons why people haven't got the vaccine when it was offered than they're refusing because they're an anti vaxxer. The assumption seems to be that any care worker that isn't vaccinated is in the wrong job, end of story. I could only just have my 1st vaccine by a matter of days because you can't have it if you're within 4 weeks of a positive covid test. How many are being recorded as unvaccinated, assumed as refused, but actually couldn't have it when offered and waiting for that time to elapse and then for an appointment?

I also know of people that are cev or in the age range being called being left off lists - not beyond the realms of possibility that's happened too for care workers, I got done at work, however I know other workers who have been called to centres for theirs, the system is not infallible, I don't expect it to be, but mistakes can be made.
At such an early stage I really don't think it's right to be looking at legislation until those things have been ironed out and we know that those in care who aren't vaccinated have actually refused. Then we need to work with those people, not against them, I don't necessarily agree with 'incentives' tbh, I think it'll just cost money, because if people really don't want it, money shouldn't make a difference, but paying people for their time would be a start.
If I'm on my days off, I have to go in for my weekly PCR, between certain times, I have never been paid for that time. It's two hours out of a day where I can't really do anything else, because I have to go and do that, and that's been happening since testing started. I didn't get paid for attending for the vaccines either, I'm lucky, I don't have young kids or other responsibilities, many do and it costs them to go, as well as travel expenses.
When it's my only day off, yes, I resent that, I'm tired, I've been working my backside off to make sure other colleagues are covered when they're off SI or ill, yet I have to arrange my whole day around it.

It sometimes feels like it's taken over my whole life, and if I am anything other than Skippy happy jolly 'of course I should do this willingly' I'm told I'm not caring enough and in the wrong job - a minimum wage job.

All those factors need consideration first, as well as already mentioned about getting the basics of care right from care providers, and bodies like the cqc actually having teeth and using them when things aren't right.

We also need to look at a structured and properly planned vaccination program, of more than just covid, and make it industry standard. That includes more education around this subject for care workers, detailing the issues faced and how vaccination will improve them, not just "Well you'll do it or else, and you'll do it now"

As you pointed out, we do a hard job, under difficult conditions for very little in return, and now I can see this making it harder. It doesn't matter how much I believe in vaccination, if I get to the point where I'm burned out because we lose 1/5th of the staff in care, I'm not going to stay under the terms I currently am.

MercyBooth · 02/06/2021 16:49

paying people for their time would be a start.
If I'm on my days off, I have to go in for my weekly PCR, between certain times, I have never been paid for that time. It's two hours out of a day where I can't really do anything else, because I have to go and do that, and that's been happening since testing started. I didn't get paid for attending for the vaccines either, I'm lucky, I don't have young kids or other responsibilities, many do and it costs them to go, as well as travel expenses.
When it's my only day off, yes, I resent that, I'm tired, I've been working my backside off to make sure other colleagues are covered when they're off SI or ill, yet I have to arrange my whole day around it

Fucking hell

bakebeans · 02/06/2021 21:04

No.

if healthcare workers are ordered to have the vaccine. Where will it end? Forced to have a flu vaccine. Children forced to be immunised. Patients forced to have medication they don’t want!
No no no.
It’s still early days and the useless government are not even vaccinating according to the actual trial data! Not to mention things are being discovered all the time, new variants etc.
There is still talk about a third wave and no guarantee that you will not get Covid And you will not pass infection to someone else. It just stops you becoming very ill and dying with it. People need to read more rather than listen to government.
It’s not the governments body at the end of the day. Everyone has a choice!

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