DS has a child and doesn't want anything to do with him

[Minewo]

I've been lurking for a while but I'm posting as I need advice.

DS is 19 and split up with his girlfriend a few months ago. The other day the girls mum messaged me (we know each other but aren't close) telling me to tell DS to leave her DD alone and stop asking if they can get back together, as her DD doesn't want to get back with him especially as he cheated on her and has a child. I had no idea, I spoke to DS and he denied it at first but then he admitted he has a child but he doesn't want anything to do with it as he was drunk and he told the girl to have an abortion but she didn't.

I just don't know what to do and I just feel so sad as I thought I brought him up better than for him to just abandon his child

I think that @CandyFIosss and @BadNomad are making equally valid points, about money from the baby’s father, although, on balance I would say that the father should be paying - as @BadNomad says, the money could be put aside - for living costs at uni or a nest egg when the child leaves home. On the one hand, having that money could say to the child that their dad didn’t entirely abandon them - but on the other, if they knew or guessed that he had to be made to pay, that might feel worse.

I think both parties are responsible for a pregnancy. Both parties are responsible for contraception, not just men, as women are not some sort of innocent bystanders. But, men do know that unprotected intercourse can lead to pregnancy and if it’s something they 100% don’t want (given they know they don’t get a say on whether the woman chooses to have a termination or not) then they need to abstain or insist on condoms and another form of contraception (failure of two forms of contraception at the same time, if used correctly, would be extremely rare). Vasectomy is not really a valid choice for men who may want to have children in the future- reversal is nowhere near 100% and is only available privately.

Contraceptive failure is not quite as common as some people think- the majority (not all) of failures are due to incorrect usage- e.g. failure to put on condom correctly (more likely if one or both parties are drunk, for instance).

All that said, it is the woman’s choice whether to continue that pregnancy or not- and that is at it should be. The alternative is horrifying- that would result in women forced into either having a termination against their will or being forced to carry a baby to term, give birth and hand it over to the father like some sort of living incubator. That simply could not be allowed. Therefore, that choice must always rest with women.

However, if a women chooses to go ahead knowing the father does not want to be involved, then she must also accept that it is highly likely that he will not support her or the child emotionally or practically (though can be forced to provide financially if he does not do so willingly). You can’t force someone to be interested or engaged, however much we think they should be. I question whether a child having someone like that in his or her life would benefit from that?

My view is that it is right that both parties take responsibility. You can’t absolve women of their role and blame it all on one sex. Both people’s actions caused their predicament and so both bear responsibility, with each party having different rights if there is an unplanned pregnancy. The woman has the right to decide whether to continue with the pregnancy, the man can only decide whether he will be involved (beyond his legal obligation to provide financially for his child).

With regard to OP- you cannot force him to have a relationship with the child. You can make it clear that he has to provide financial support. Is the problem that he does not think the child is his or is it that he is running away from the responsibility? I think formal processes should be put in place- paternity testing if necessary, formal child maintenance etc, makes waters less muddy. If you can be there for the child, and mum allows it, then do so..

but you will ask taxpaying citizens of the country, who didn't create the child, for money to raise that man's child?

Having CMS wouldn't put me in a position to not be on benefits though. I was on them prior to becoming pregnant anyway.

why not take your child on holiday or something? Pay for a tutor? Decorate her room? Days out? Pay for horse-riding lessons. Whatever.

My child has been on holiday. Even the kids in my family who have working parents don't have tutors. I can't "decorate her room" as we live in private rental and aren't allowed, I don't live in social housing. My daughter goes to school-related clubs, and actually has had swimming lessons since she was a baby. She has a savings account. Weird that you assume people on benefits don't have days-out with their children, too.

I chose to keep her instead of getting an abortion or giving her for adoption. It was me who wasn't taking my pill correctly and didn't take the morning after pill. The reason a condom wasn't used was "I'm on the pill". I feel responsible for her existence in this case.

Now, maybe in different circumstances I would feel more inclined to ask for CMS. But, as it stands, I've never even considered it.

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop

This is a Public Service Announcement:

Men are very much aware that sex produces babies. It's not just about having their 45 seconds of fun.
Men are also aware that contraception can fail.
Men are also aware that, in the U.K., if a woman wants an abortion, that's a decision he has no part of.
Men are also aware that human beings cost money and that the parents have a legal duty to provide financial care.

So why, when we are aware that men are equipped with this knowledge, do some people fall over themselves to insist men don't realise sex can end in a pregnancy they will have no choice over? Or insist their wallets shouldn't be hurt, in a country where child poverty is already insanely high? Or insist they're innocent victims who had no part in the whole falling pregnant matter. Or insist that they should shirk responsibilities of taking care of an actual human person who has to live in this world because of their actions (the actions they took in full awareness of the above? Remember).

Do you know men could do? If they so desperately want to avoid the risk of impregnating a woman? A few options

1. They could get the snip. It's reversible. But very few do because they don't like the thought of the Mighty Penis being interfered with in a non-sexual way.
2. They could abstain. I know that some people will recoil in horror at the thought of men not getting their dicks wet, but this is a totally valid choice and 100% guaranteed not to end in pregnancy.

Failing the above, and this is probably the easiest and most realistic option:

1. They could actually get to know a woman before sleeping with her. They could find out if their views on contraception/baby making/abortions/how they'd deal with an unwanted pregnancy, are compatible. They don't HAVE to fuck every vagina they see immediately.

And before someone says women should take the same view - it's a good point but women have sex without the worry that someone else will get pregnant and they'll have no say in the outcome, so really if men don't want to be father the onus is on them to make it (not) happen.

This is a Public Service Announcement:

Men are very much aware that sex produces babies. It's not just about having their 45 seconds of fun. so are women

Men are also aware that contraception can fail. women are also aware

Men are also aware that, in the U.K., if a woman wants an abortion, that's a decision he has no part of. something which no one is disputing

Men are also aware that human beings cost money and that the parents have a legal duty to provide financial care. women are also aware or this. Regardless of law, women should realise that if they take an opposing decision to men (to keep when the man has stated they don’t want a baby), they can’t expect men just to go along with it wholeheartedly

So why, when we are aware that men are equipped with this knowledge that women are also equipped with, do some people fall over themselves to insist men don't realise sex can end in a pregnancy they will have no choice over why don’t people realise that if a man does not want the baby, he has the option of walking away, just like if a woman does not want the baby, she can take the MAP or abort ? Or insist their wallets shouldn't be hurt, in a country where child poverty is already insanely high? it takes two to make a baby. If the woman can’t afford it, maybe she should also keep her legs together Or insist they're innocent victims who had no part in the whole falling pregnant matter no one is saying this. It takes two to make a baby. Man and woman. Or insist that they should shirk responsibilities of taking care of an actual human person who has to live in this world because of their actions (the actions they took in full awareness of the above? Remember). both made the baby. The woman can 'shirk her responsibilities by haveing an abortion or taking the MAP. He can walk away. The woman needs to know this. If she doesn’t like it, then don’t sleep with him

Do you know men could do? If they so desperately want to avoid the risk of impregnating a woman? A few options

1. They could get the snip. It's reversible. But very few do because they don't like the thought of the Mighty Penis being interfered with in a non-sexual way. she could get her tubes tied

1. They could abstain. I know that some people will recoil in horror at the thought of men not getting their dicks wet, but this is a totally valid choice and 100% guaranteed not to end in pregnancy. I know that some people will recoil in horror at the thought of women not spreading their legs and letting a man stick his penis in

Failing the above, and this is probably the easiest and most realistic option:

1. They could actually get to know a woman before sleeping with her. They could find out if their views on contraception/baby she could get to know the man before sleeping with him

making/abortions/how they'd deal with an unwanted pregnancy, are compatible. They don't HAVE to fuck every vagina they see immediately. she doesn’t have to fuck every penis she sees immediately

And before someone says women should take the same view - it's a good point but women have sex without the worry that someone else will get pregnant and they'll have no say in the outcome, so really if men don't want to be father the onus is on them to make it (not) happen. this doesn’t even make sense

Can you not see how ridiculous and one sided you are. Your hatred of men is stopping you from seeing things in a balanced way.

Adoption will on average lead to better life outcomes for unplanned children where the father doesn’t want to be involved, and the mother is economically unable to meet the child’s needs on her own.

Note I’m not in anyway making a case that any sort of enforcement either societal or legal to force that outcome should be made, simply that data on adoptions is worth bringing up.

Is this true? As someone adopted (and happy I was) I'm genuinely interested in data about adoption outcomes as it's something really lacking.

@Dervel (or anyone else!) can you share sources to this data so I can have a read through? Thanks!

I think that data is likely to be very minimal given how few babies are relinquished in the U.K. youve

@lavenderandwisteria

I think that data is likely to be very minimal given how few babies are relinquished in the U.K. youve

I thought so too, but @Dervel stated it so confidently I thought maybe a research piece had come out since I last tried to do a deep dive. Maybe they will come back and confirm, it would be interesting to know as I don't see how there could be a data pool big enough to extrapolate comparative outcomes. Would genuinely like to know the source so hopefully they come back or PM me a link!

Ps

For the hard of thinking. I’m not really suggesting that a woman should get her tubes tied, I’m pointing out the ridiculousness of suggesting a young man should get the snip as preventative birth control (prior to him wanting to start a family).

@ANiceCupOfCoffee

Ps

For the hard of thinking. I’m not really suggesting that a woman should get her tubes tied, I’m pointing out the ridiculousness of suggesting a young man should get the snip as preventative birth control (prior to him wanting to start a family).

It's funny that you mention hard of thinking.

Get this into your head. Abortion is not contraception. If you make a baby you are responsible for that baby. Both of you. You can walk away from parenting it but you can not walk away from paying for it. So if you dont want a baby then don't make a baby.

What a catch your son is. I don’t blame the other girl’s mum (not that this your fault at all Op, what a mess).

@Happycat1212

Treacletoots

Genuinely interested in how you can force someone to be involved in their child’s life if they don’t want to?

You can't and it leads to a lot of resentment and using the child as a pawn/guilt thing instead of a person. My ex friend used to do this with her kids and their fathers. Really can't force a relationship that isn't there.

All the advice on abortion would have been better but discounts things like pro 'life' nonesense or religious beliefs of that girl and her family.

Sorry if I've missed something but does OP and her DS know for sure that baby was actually born? He said he blocked the girl after telling her to have the abortion, so was there any contact after that ?

Well you've certainly got everyone frothing on this nonsense thread haven't you op, where you've said fuck all and been vague as all shit. Well done.

I think that data is likely to be very minimal given how few babies are relinquished in the U.K.

My DNephew is a relinquished child. His birth mum was in an impossible situation and appears to have had no choice, as a single mum with older DC, one of them with SEN. (I think the only reason this happened was because she discovered that she was pregnant too late to have a termination.)

My DNephew has a loving adoptive family, with my DSis and BIL and older siblings, as well as two cousins who are also adopted. (My DDs were adopted because they were taken away from their birth parents, as usually happens these days.)

But my DNephew has to live with the fact that he was relinquished, unlike his older birth siblings. He’s a lovely little boy, but he struggles with the rejection, unlike my DDs, who know that their birth parents wanted to keep them but weren’t fit to. (Obviously this is also traumatic, and DD1 in particular has serious attachment issues. But not rejection by their birth parents.)

He’s now about to finish year 1 and has struggled with his education so far; his parents had to move him to another school, which was more suited to his needs.

So no, IMO adoption really must always be a last resort. However loving the adoptive family is, being separated from the birth mum is so damaging. It’s brought up far too glibly on threads like this.

Op your son is still young and learning, I wouldn't come down on him like a ton of bricks I'd educate and support him and help him understand what's happened here.

Hi OP I've not read all the comments but have read yours.

So sorry you are dealing with this must be really hard to know you have a grandchild that you have never met. I would ask ex gf if she will give you the name of the women he got pg and try and contact her directly. Though you need to be prepared for her not to want anything to do with you and you will have to accept this.

In terms of your son not taking responsibility for his child there isn't much you can do to make him change his mind - though make sure that the women is claiming any child support she can off him as he should be paying as the bare minimum.
I would be making it clear to him how disappointed I was in his behaviour and really I'd find it hard to have him continue living with me.

@Librariesmakeshhhhappen

I think I'm seeing this as the whole lot of you to blame because of my personal experience, this is hitting close to home.

My ex walked out when our youngest was a few weeks old. So I was left with 2 kids, and had no idea he was going. Came home and all his stuff was just gone. He decided he wanted no contact with the kids, and told his parents they could either see him or see their grandchildren. They chose him.
He then used every trick he could to avoid any maintenance and his dad said to me, "well, we just didnt think that was important to we didnt think it was worth talking to him about".

I found out later that he had left me for a woman he worked with, it only lasted a few months and he ended up back living with his parents. They were just horrible, selfish people. And that's why he turned out the way he did. Followed their example.

So this, when I see a story if a boy acting like this, I just think "what sort of example did his parents set and what did they do when he abandoned the kid".

So, he's done this disgusting thing. What are you going to do?

Well that’s just bollox.

HE is the one being an arsehole, why should OP carry his guilt and responsibility?

I raised 6 kids. 5 of them are ‘normal’, in that they have grown into great adults with fantastic children of their own. They have their own homes and jobs and I am so very proud of them.

1 of them though, is a habitual weed smoker, he and his wife have lost their kids and I raise them. Neither can hold a job. I love them dearly but they have me tearing my hair out.

Are you seriously trying to tell us that my example has made this one child so very different from the other 5? Sometimes people are just crap.

@LizzieW1969

*I think that data is likely to be very minimal given how few babies are relinquished in the U.K.*

My DNephew is a relinquished child. His birth mum was in an impossible situation and appears to have had no choice, as a single mum with older DC, one of them with SEN. (I think the only reason this happened was because she discovered that she was pregnant too late to have a termination.)

My DNephew has a loving adoptive family, with my DSis and BIL and older siblings, as well as two cousins who are also adopted. (My DDs were adopted because they were taken away from their birth parents, as usually happens these days.)

But my DNephew has to live with the fact that he was relinquished, unlike his older birth siblings. He’s a lovely little boy, but he struggles with the rejection, unlike my DDs, who know that their birth parents wanted to keep them but weren’t fit to. (Obviously this is also traumatic, and DD1 in particular has serious attachment issues. But not rejection by their birth parents.)

He’s now about to finish year 1 and has struggled with his education so far; his parents had to move him to another school, which was more suited to his needs.

So no, IMO adoption really must always be a last resort. However loving the adoptive family is, being separated from the birth mum is so damaging. It’s brought up far too glibly on threads like this.

Agreed. I am actively involved with 3 adoptive families with grown children at present. All 4 adopted children have major issues with mental health and emotional attanhment.

Adoption isn’t the rosy ending people think it is.

I notice that @anicecupofcoffee hasn't answered the question about how far into a pregnancy a man should be able to demand an abortion? Should he be allowed to demand an abortion with the threat of financial abandonment at 20 weeks? Should a woman comply at 24 weeks or face being a single mother with no support?

@startrek90

I notice that *@anicecupofcoffee* hasn't answered the question about how far into a pregnancy a man should be able to demand an abortion? Should he be allowed to demand an abortion with the threat of financial abandonment at 20 weeks? Should a woman comply at 24 weeks or face being a single mother with no support?

Oh fgs should I be hanging on every post? I’m pretty certain I did answer. The thread has also slowed down, and there seems little point to keep bumping it.

Ideally as early as possible. If the pregnancy is discovered late, then the decision will be made later.

And I’ve never said he should be able to 'demand an abortion'. I’ve said that once an unplanned pregnancy happens, both parties need to have a discussion about it.

If she doesn’t want the pregnancy to continue, she can have an abortion whether he wants it to continue or not (note, I have never said that abortion is a method of contraception, but it is an option available if contraception fails. Both parties should be dealing with their own contraception and not relying on the other person).

If he doesn’t want the pregnancy to continue, he can walk away.

Neither of the above options are nice for the other person, but it’s biology that makes it that way and biology can’t be changed.

Neither of the above options are nice for the other person, but it’s biology that makes it that way and biology can’t be changed.

No, but the law and society does provide (some) compensation for that biology.

Albeit it's very limited. But I can see why such protections aren't extended when there are people like you who insist that men should be protected regardless of the cost to women.

I think it’s fine to expect financial support just don’t expect the guy to hang around and bring up a kid he told you he didn’t want.

In the United Kingdom, a large sample of adults, most of whom were adopted before their first birthday, were compared at age 23 and again at age 33 to a birth comparison group of non-adopted adults (of the same age, from similar birth circumstances) and to the general population (of the same age). Adopted women adjusted positively according to all metrics, often outperforming the general population. Adopted men generally did as well as the general population comparison group, though they had fewer social supports and experienced more employment-related problems. At age 33, most of the adopted men and women were performing much better socially and economically than their birth comparison group.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12191528/

As far as I’m concerned, and I feel I need to restate this for those who failed to read my initial post on the subject. At NO point should adoption be forced societally or legislated (unless in severe cases where abuse/neglect has been established). Just because some data suggests better outcomes does NOT mean any individual single mother can’t knock it out of the park with her parenting and have children that thrive, plenty do.

My raising it was intended to be part of the discussion not in anyway meant to end it or be the final word. I was just exasperated as I think it’s perfectly possible for people of good conscience to be driven to fairly extreme positions in debates like this on EITHER side.

There isn’t a magic wand that can be waved to make someone ready or willing to be a parent. Wanting to see either mother’s or father’s somehow punished in situations like this for perceived irresponsibility is counter productive and not really helpful for the actual children either. It’s not joined up thinking in my view.

I would like to personally apologise to anyone I may have offended or upset by anything I have written. My responses were not intended to sneer at anyone, and if that’s the impression anyone got I am sorry.