Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A message from a trans friend. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia .....

999 replies

Biber · 18/05/2021 09:59

Apparently today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia...

I shall do my part, so here are a few things that might help others to understand better.

Everyone has to go to the toilet at some point. I think even for many non-trans people, public toilets are often only used as a last resort (has anyone ever actually been inside a "nice" public toilet?). This is also the case for trans people. No one uses them unless the really have to. Trans people aren't thinking about what's down there on other people or anything like that (only perverts are). Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear, without having to prove what they themselves have (or haven't got) down there (i.e. some dignity would be nice). No one should feel uncomfortable doing their business and everyone is entitled to privacy. That applies to both trans and non-trans people. If someone does make you feel uncomfortable through their actions (not by how they dress or present themselves), then you should do something about it, because you in fact are likely not the only one who will be uncomfortable.
In short, why aren't all public toilets individual and completely private? Do spare a thought for those of us with more generalised anxiety disorders...

There are some people who are quite happy to include trans people once they have fully transitioned, i.e. undergone surgery. That's great, we just need to tell our doctors and the trust who is going to fund the surgery and the surgeons and the hospital where we will be having the surgery that they all need to bloody well hurry up so that we can have the surgery and be finally be included. Don't they realise that if we have to wait another year, we are going to continue to be excluded? That some people will still deny us the right to use certain facilities (the loo in some cases)? Forget the fact that it would be great to have the surgery as soon as possible so that we can be comfortable with ourselves and get on with our lives... So, trans people are being "temporarily excluded" because they cannot speed up a system (that they themselves so badly want to speed up), which is already under-resourced and overwhelmed saving people's lives.
Oh, and btw, trans people are aware that it isn't the surgery that finally makes them the other sex/gender. They know they are more likely to see a properly funded and resourced NHS under the Tories than they are to ever have children once they have had the surgery; that it's all a sort of compromise/this is the best that can be done with your body. But until or unless huge advances are made in medicine and surgery, this is the best that can be achieved for now. Well, it is better than nothing. After all, it hasn't even been 100 years yet since the first sex reassignment surgery was performed.

Of course, that is assuming all transgender people can have surgery, or even want surgery. As surprising as it may sound, transgender people come in all sorts - old and young, short and tall, all sorts of ethnicities, cool, boring, fun, smart, stupid... Oh, and they also differ in terms of their gender identities and presentation (the clue is after all in the term). Some of them might just not be very conventional in terms of their presentation and behaviour, have no interest in taking hormones, and definitely do not want surgery. Others will go all the way and do it so well that you will doubt they are telling the truth about them being trans, even as they shove a copy of their birth certificate and their baby pictures in your face. A lot of people are somewhere inbetween. One does have to wonder how a single term can be used to describe such a diverse range of people! With that in mind, I propose we rename it to "gender-diverse" (like "neuro-diverse"), because "diverse" seems like such a good word at the moment, right?

Trans people exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is trans and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all trans people are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, trans people have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be trans (though without the gender bit), and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies (ok, well maybe for a few weeks at most for the worst of the worst).

And with that, I bid you all a happy International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
RockPainting · 18/05/2021 10:57

"Women exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is a woman and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all women are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, women have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be female, and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies."

There you go OP, I've made some changes for you.

GlassBoxSpectacular · 18/05/2021 10:59

Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear

There's generally no queue for the men's toilets, so transwomen may find that using the toilet designated for their sex will avoid such unpleasantness in a more efficient manner.

Do feel free to share this advice with your "friend". Happy to have been able to help Smile

Tibtom · 18/05/2021 11:00

Also we aren't discussing women's rights. She was discussing trans.

It's like discussing racism and saying "what about white people?"

No it is like taking all the funding away fron trans groups, stonewall etc, and giving it to animal welfare charities, giving any LGB T representation roles to animal rights activists and replacing pride with a RSPCA day, then saying "what do mean trans rights? We are talking about animal welfare"

LigPatin · 18/05/2021 11:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post.

LuaDipa · 18/05/2021 11:01

@financialrecovery

Jesus is there anything trans people can have without being jumped on 🙄
I could say the same about women.Hmm
SmallPrawnEnergy · 18/05/2021 11:01

I complexly agree with you @financialrecovery but this is MN, notorious for being anti trans. Case in point...

The issue isn't that people don't want trans people in sex segregated spaces.
It's that there are people pretending to be trans who have a different agenda
MN don’t seem to understand the difference between predators and trans people. All trans people are evil, but if a f2m transgender person walked into a women’s toilet with a beard and looking like a traditional masculine man, you bet they wouldn’t be inclusive because of their genitalia (which seems to be the main issue).

MattDamon · 18/05/2021 11:03

How many male-centric forums did you post this on, OP? Let me guess...

Gumbomambo · 18/05/2021 11:03

No mention of the H or the B or even a sniff of an L? No why would you,? You have got your days mixed up...it was yesterday.

Eyesofdisarray · 18/05/2021 11:04

Pro women is not anti trans. This is yet another tactic to attempt to shut women up
Just stop it

Whythesadface · 18/05/2021 11:05

Femphobia seems to be everywhere right now.
Denied our rights as female born humans, who menstrate, our penis lacking bodies are denied the right to stand loud and proud because it hurts other people's feelings.
So what if you wear our clothing, have surgery to outwardly resemble us, what your doing in denying us our identity that Femphobic.

Morgan12 · 18/05/2021 11:06

So where will I pee? Me, a woman, who is uncomfortable with the idea of sharing personal spaces with males?

Oh thats right, doesn't matter what I feel or think. Silly female me thinking my opinion mattered for a second there. I'll check myself.

BrumBoo · 18/05/2021 11:06

Sex based rights are there to protect women. Including the use of toilets. I'm genuinely sorry that gender beliefs cause individuals pain and mental suffering, but women always have and always will be at greater risks due to their sex. Gender beliefs should not get to trump these facts. Women need their spaces, free form any male or those born male with different gender beliefs. Sports, prisons, domestic abuse centres and toilets, all should be sex segregated, no ifs or buts.

WinterTrees · 18/05/2021 11:07

The thing I don't get about this is that if you wanted to invade a toilet or changing room to attack or ogle women, surely it would be easier just to don a hi vis and a cloth and pretend to be a cleaner, than pretend to be trans?
I think that's why it feels anti trans to me. The suggestion that trans people would take advantage of this. I can see the point in prisons for example. But in public anybody can walk in to a women's toilet. Nobody stops you. Why are trans targeted?

As the OP stated, trans people come in all sorts, just like everyone else. Some of them - a tiny minority perhaps - do take advantage of having access to women's spaces. I posted a link on another thread to a twitter account which collates pornographic material filmed in women's toilets and shared on sites like Pornhub and OnlyFans. There's a lot of it and it's so graphic and (to me) shocking that I'm not going to re-post the link here. If anyone wants to find it, it's on page 20 of this thread. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?pg=20

I'm not remotely saying it's most transwomen, just that it's either naive or disingenuous to say that women's concerns about sharing spaces with male bodied people are unfounded.

MN don’t seem to understand the difference between predators and trans people
How do you tell the difference? In a station toilet late at night, how do you tell whether the 6'4" muscular person who has followed you into the ladies is a trans person or a predator?

Artichokeleaves · 18/05/2021 11:07

MN don’t seem to understand the difference between predators and trans people.

How does a woman tell the difference as to whether this male person is genuinely trans or in a female space for predatory reasons?

How could Karen White's victims have told the difference since White is both a convicted predator and trans? The multiple rapes White committed having identified on to a women's mental health ward led to one woman so badly injured she may never be able now to have children. White went on to assault more women in a women's prison while awaiting trial.

And it still doesn't deal with what happens to the female people who cannot access a mixed sex space regardless of how sincerely someone male may be in their identity.

Waitwhat23 · 18/05/2021 11:08

Somehow this conversation always gets onto the relative 'whataboutery' of toilet access. What about the rape of women who are incarcerated in the women's estate with convicted sex offenders who now identify as women? That is happening (see the recent MOJ court case).

If single sex spaces become single gender spaces and if self ID means that any predator (not specifically trans people but anyone with a nefarious aim) can access spaces where women are vulnerable, then women's safety is at risk.

HavelockVetinari · 18/05/2021 11:08

Trans people aren't thinking about what's down there on other people or anything like that (only perverts are). Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear, without having to prove what they themselves have (or haven't got) down there (i.e. some dignity would be nice)

I agree - the vast majority of folk presenting as trans probably just want to have a wee in peace. However (and this is crucial) - women can't tell the difference between a trans person just wanting to use the loo, and a predator dressing up as a woman to access women's private spaces and harm them (and please don't tell me this doesn't happen - it very much has and does, there are many examples if you would like me to provide them).

It's the same reason we don't allow men into women's loos etc. - most of them are harmless, nice people just wanting to use the facilities and leave. The reason we exclude them is because some of them do want to harm us, and it's not possible to tell which ones at a glance, hence the reason for single sex facilities.

I am also aware that trans women want privacy and dignity - so do all other women, and unfortunately some women (not all, but some) are uncomfortable changing clothes/going to the loo etc. in front of a person they perceive as male, regardless of how that person self-identifies. There are very many women out there who've been raped, sexually assaulted, harassed and otherwise harmed by males - what about their right to privacy and dignity?

I agree that transwomen may be unsafe in male toilets/changing rooms/prisons, but I don't think the answer is to allow anyone who says they're a woman into women's spaces. It's like putting a big sign up saying to predators "Come in! All you need to do is dress like a woman!". No, I'm not saying transwomen are predators - I'm saying that predators will (and have, and do) pretend to be trans in order to access women's spaces. And THAT is why we exclude all males, regardless of their identity.

It massively sucks for trans women - I think a third space is probably the best and fairest solution, and I will campaign by your side for such spaces to exist.

Tibtom · 18/05/2021 11:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

CthulhuChristmas · 18/05/2021 11:11

Some of them might just not be very conventional in terms of their presentation and behaviour, have no interest in taking hormones, and definitely do not want surgery.

Fine. Good for them. They should be able to dress however they want. Why on earth would their aesthetic choices and 'behaviour' mean they should use the toilets meant for the opposite sex?

I have a lot of sympathy for transsexuals who suffer from severe dysphoria. None at all for those who want special treatment because they think all other men and women fit in little blue and pink 'cis' boxes but they don't.

LizzieSiddal · 18/05/2021 11:11

Transwomen commit crime at the same rate as other men and half of transwomen prisoners are there for sex offences.

The vast majority of transwomen do no have any surgery and to identify as trans you do not need to make any changes to your appearance - no surgery, hormones, feminie clothing or a shave is required.

Women are 18 times more likely to be assaulted in mixed sex (cubicle) changing rooms.

This and when men and transwomen stop sexually assaulting women, we can all share our spaces. Until then, women only spaces can stay, as allowed by Law in the Equality Act.

Helleofabore · 18/05/2021 11:12

@MaxNormal

To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you

The experience of women, right there.

yep
ArabellaScott · 18/05/2021 11:12

What's your AIBU, OP? Usually people come to this board with a question they'd like to hear a consensus of opinion on, it doesn't seem like you have one.

TopBlogger · 18/05/2021 11:13

@Biber What is the AIBU?

CthulhuChristmas · 18/05/2021 11:14

@Morgan12

So where will I pee? Me, a woman, who is uncomfortable with the idea of sharing personal spaces with males?

Oh thats right, doesn't matter what I feel or think. Silly female me thinking my opinion mattered for a second there. I'll check myself.

I asked this on Twitter recently and was told that if I didn't like it I should just stop using public toilets altogether.

The re-introduction of the urinary leash, then. Women, don't go too far from home, there's no safe place to use the loo without men around.

LizzieSiddal · 18/05/2021 11:14

MN don’t seem to understand the difference between predators and trans people.

This is so idiotic. Some men are predators so we have safeguarding and single sex spaces. Some trans people are predators so we should keep our safeguards and single sex spaces.

No ine is saying All transwomen are predators just like no one says all men are.

doublehalo · 18/05/2021 11:14

(has anyone ever actually been inside a "nice" public toilet?).

Yes, I have. Most women's public toilet are 'nice'.

Swipe left for the next trending thread