To think we shouldn’t have another lockdown to protect vaccine refusers?

[Susie477]

Everyone over 40 or in high-risk groups has now been offered a vaccine. The overwhelming majority, including me, have gratefully taken up the offer. A small minority have refused the vaccine, as is their right, of course.

Now we are seeing new ‘variants of concern’ and unvaccinated vulnerable people in some areas are now being hospitalised because they have been infected.

Some people are now calling for extended restrictions in these areas to prevent the new variant spreading. Why should responsible people who have been vaccinated be punished by yet more lockdown because idiots in their communities are too stupid or too selfish to get vaccinated?

Just to add my tuppence worth, I am pregnant (second trimester) and have booked my vaccine appointments (will be 38 before the 1 July cut off date). I wasn’t overly worried about safety, given the lack of serious side effects being reported in the US and also the number of vaccines that are routinely administered in pregnancy (whooping cough and flu to name the two most common) but I didn’t feel particularly at risk anyway so wasn’t sure whether to just wait until after the birth - to be honest I wasn’t expecting to be eligible so soon.

Anyway DH is a GP and advised me to have it as he felt the risks of catching COVID later in pregnancy outweighed the (theoretical) possible risks from the vaccine- he is expecting a third peak in the autumn when I am due. Also it would be fairly awful to test positive for covid around my due date and not know what to expect with respect to hospital admission/ birth arrangements, even if I wasn’t especially badly ill.

It would be unfair and unreasonable to blame people who decide not to have the vaccine when half the population has been ignoring guidelines and rules for weeks if not months!

But I don't want to live in a country where medical procedures or jab could be imposed against your will.

It is unfair to blame the tiny numbers who are able to have the vaccine now but are refusing (and the numbers not taking it up include those who can't have it for other medical reasons).

There really isn't wide spread refusal. The vast majority are having the vaccine when called.

Speeding up the vaccination programme makes more sense. The government were slow to put India on the red list, so we need to counter that by vaccinating as many as possible.

In areas with high numbers of the new varient, they should be jabbing anyone over 18, even if that means other areas have to wait for supply a bit. (They should also be testing everyone in those areas to work out how wide spread it is)

There are 230,000 people in the UK who have some form of blood cancer. Leukemia, lymphoma, non Hodgkin etc, most of who have had both vaccines. Unfortunately, its come to light that even both doses of the vaccine has given them little or no immunity to covid. Having any type of blood cancer at any stage of treatment puts you in the highest risk group of death or severe illness. Then there are those who cannot have the vaccine even if they wanted to.
This is why its so important for as many people as possible to have the vaccine. Fair enough, they may not get ill if they catch Covid but they could unwittingly pass it on who has no defense against it.

@nancywhitehead

The more it is allowed to spread, the more likely it is to mutate into something more dangerous and vaccine-resistant.

The first part of that is true. The second isn’t, mutations tend to make viruses less dangerous as killing the host reduces its chance of survival.

Interesting that the OP never came back to the thread.

@UhtredRagnarson

So fuck everyone under 40 and those older who are unable to have the vaccine?

Calm down. The vaccine reduces the symptoms so less likely to need hospital rather than dropping dead from covid. That age range is very likely to have very little problem.

[quote Theredjellybean]@Sh05

The facts are, five out of 18 patients in hospital with covid Indian variant in Bolton had one jab, one person two, they are described as very frail.
That leaves 13 people who are described as eligible for a vaccine who did not have one.
I'd struggle to believe these all had allergies to the ingredients of the vaccine.
I have given over 1000 vaccines and have not yet had one person who had allergies to the ingredients of the vaccine. So to have 13 in one area would be improbable.
I can infer from this that is 13 people who did not have the vaccine through choice.
They potentially will have infected many more people.. People who have not yet had a chance to get vaccinated... The cases rises and panic sets in and we all have to suffer.
I think that's selfish...[/quote]
Yep agree.
Idiots avoiding vaccine then get ill... their own fault, however I feel for those that they pass it to.

I agree however much of those wanting restrictions have to be lifted have had their vaccine. There are millions of adults who want the vaccine but cannot get it. Until everyone who wants a vaccine has it then we should have lockdowns when appropriate to protect them.

@Whoarethewho

I agree however much of those wanting restrictions have to be lifted have had their vaccine. There are millions of adults who want the vaccine but cannot get it. Until everyone who wants a vaccine has it then we should have lockdowns when appropriate to protect them.

Those who remain unvaccinated are very low risk. We locked down to minimise hospitalisation and death, not to stop people getting ill. Where does it stop? Flu kills people, should we lock down for that?

@Whoarethewho

I agree however much of those wanting restrictions have to be lifted have had their vaccine. There are millions of adults who want the vaccine but cannot get it. Until everyone who wants a vaccine has it then we should have lockdowns when appropriate to protect them.

I am one of those people waiting for their vaccination. I am at very low risk of getting seriously ill from covid because I’m under 40 and no underlying health condition making me vulnerable. This is true of the majority of people waiting.

Yes I’m in the high risk bracket for long covid, and yes I could be one of the rare unlucky ones who gets ill despite being comparatively young and in good health.

But lockdowns are so dreadfully harmful that you cannot justify them to protect individuals at low risk. It’s one thing to lock down to prevent overwhelming the NHS and prevent tens of thousands of deaths among an unvaccinated vulnerable demographic. But it’s totally disproportionate to suggest locking down and causing so much suffering so the young and low risk don’t catch it.

That’s the point of this thread really - the hospitalisations have been disproportionately among the vulnerable but unvaccinated, and that’s the OP’s concern.

We made a decision about covid to lock down I would rather either everyone gets treated the same and we don't let up untill they have been vaccinated or we just let everyone carry on and let the sick elderly and unlucky take their chances. Personally I would be happy with either. But definitely not this halfway house where we don't protect everyone who wants it. For flu we don't lockdown that was fine I have given up a lot so the cev and old can be protected and I expect the same in return.

I have given up a lot so the cev and old can be protected and I expect the same in return

If you’re not high risk, you don’t need the same in return.

@Blossomtoes that's not really how it works. Mutations are random, and just as likely to make a virus more dangerous than less (actually many are neutral). In the long term a virus that causes severe illness and death is less likely to persist in large numbers than a milder one but that's the long term. Unchecked, a severe virus could quite easily burn it's way through billions of people before dying out if it's also highly transmission, see bubonic and pneumonic plagues fe

Certainly it sticks in the throat to see people going about their day to day business without the worry of catching covid and telling me we should be unlocking when my only crime is not being old enough to qualify for the vaccine. Especially when the young have given up so much to protect them forced to by the government.

@freakyfridays

Where are your facts that the vaccine will affect anyone negatively?

maybe have a chat with doctors who had to deal with people who reacted badly for a start?
Where are your facts that the vaccine will not have any effect?

What we DO KNOW is the risk of covid and pregnancy.
Which in many cases are .. none. The risks of catching covid are pretty low at the moment in many places around the country - and all you have to do is refrain from flying on holiday until you have the baby.

I just strongly disagree with people pretending that it's such an "easy" choice to make for many people.

Okay I don’t think this debate is really going anywhere. Thank you for the advice I have indeed sought it from my doctor, neo natal nurse and neo natal doctors who have seen the increase in premature babies and mums first hand who’ve sadly been affected by covid.

I’m yet to hear of anyone who has been negatively affected by the vaccine that is comparable. A saw arm or a headache for a week isn’t really a life changing side affect. I think your missing the point that no one knows what the virus is going to do so to say it’s low risk of infections maybe so right now but I doubt it will be the case in the autumn or winter as they are expecting it to behave the same way as flu, not to mention the Indian variant. So compound that with all the other issues for pregnant ladies (flu, repressed immune system) the known risks of catching covid vs vaccine is pretty clear IMO.

A saw arm or a headache for a week isn’t really a life changing side affect.

Fatal blood clots are.

@freakyfridays

Where are your facts that the vaccine will affect anyone negatively?

maybe have a chat with doctors who had to deal with people who reacted badly for a start?
Where are your facts that the vaccine will not have any effect?

What we DO KNOW is the risk of covid and pregnancy.
Which in many cases are .. none. The risks of catching covid are pretty low at the moment in many places around the country - and all you have to do is refrain from flying on holiday until you have the baby.

I just strongly disagree with people pretending that it's such an "easy" choice to make for many people.

Your posts on this thread are the most textbook example I have ever seen of someone who doesn’t have the first clue about statistics or risk

And that post has to be the icing on the cake

Just mind boggling that you think your opinion should carry equal sway of anyone in the medical community when you don’t have even a primary level of understanding of the subject

GappyValley

being rude because you don't agree with me doesn't make you right.

Just implying that "anyone in the medical community" is in favour of vaccinating pregnant women shows you are confusing your own opinion and actual facts.

I totally understand that a pregnant woman who has chosen to have the jab will reject any post that it might have negative and long-term consequences on their unborn baby. Once it's done, of course you want to be right and everybody else to shut up, we got that.

@freakyfridays so what is it that you think the vaccine will do to a pregnant woman or fetus that the virus won't . And how - which bit of the vaccine is the problem?

Negative affects from the virus are far, far more common than those from vaccination, even if rare. And the virus is here, now. It's not like measles when you might not meet a case for years.

I have to agree. I can't help it. If there's a valid reason ie pregnancy then that's different.

But absolute refusers? Zero sympathy. They've made their choice. Educated and informed choice I assume. So no, no allowances from me.

[quote BarbarianMum]@freakyfridays so what is it that you think the vaccine will do to a pregnant woman or fetus that the virus won't . And how - which bit of the vaccine is the problem?

Negative affects from the virus are far, far more common than those from vaccination, even if rare. And the virus is here, now. It's not like measles when you might not meet a case for years.[/quote]
Did you even bother to read my posts?

I am not saying it "have it" or "don't have it", I am saying that we have so little information about long-term effects that it's a really shit situation to be in when you are pregnant, and it's not such an easy decision to make when it's your own baby, despite what some silly posters pretend (or that they are talking on behalf of the entire medical community).

It's still a gamble over whether you might get covid in the next 6 to 8 months (or less if your pregnancy is even more advanced), and how you'll react to the jab and the completely unknown effects on your baby.

It''s not an easy decision, and it would be ridiculous to blame pregnant women to delay getting the jab for a few months. But compassion and common sense is always lacking on some posts.

@Theredjellybeaned
I stand corrected that there must be some who were refusers but it's not only about allergies is it? What about those who are on immuno-surpressants? I know some have been able to get the vaccine، others have been advised against it. I also know some people who delayed there jabs due to illness and other health problems. You can't blame them for not getting the vaccine asap if it wasn't possible for them.

The government want us to lay the blame on each other to deflect from themselves and they've successfully done just that.

Which is the best vaccine for COVID-19? The one you are offered

Do they cause COVID infection?
Vaccines don’t cause COVID. If you tested positive after the shot it’s real infection

Do they suppress immunity?
No, COVID vaccines don’t suppress immunity

When can you take them after having a COVID Infection?
in 4-wks after recovery

Can vaccines cause Clots?
Yes, 4 in a million. Significantly less than what HRT, Smoking, pregnancy, over weight and most importantly #COVID19 infection can cause.

Who’s responsible about spreading the word?
Everyone. Medical community ALONE cannot fix vaccine hesitancy. Media, politicians, religious leaders and EVERY influencer must do their part.

Some doctors are against the vaccine?
No evidence supporting their claims.

Do vaccines effect fertility?
NO

Do they work against spread of the virus?
Yes!
#COVID19 cases are down in countries with strong vaccinations programs and
Vaccines are widely available. Those fully vaccinated are less likely to transmit virus.
See the attached plot about spread of infection in the US after the huge program adopted there; similar trends are seen in the UK. The map summaries Vaccinations around the world. It’s a race against the variants.

Can you take the vaccine if you are pregnant or breastfeeding?
Yes.

Simply the alternative is you having a covid infection! Which can be fatal.
The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) has advised that pregnant women should be offered COVID-19 vaccines at the same time as people of the same age or risk group. In the USA, around 90,000 pregnant women have been vaccinated mainly with Pfizer and Moderna vaccines and no safety concerns have been identified.

CDC guidance USA:

www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/recommendations/pregnancy.html

GOV.Uk guidance:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-women-of-childbearing-age-currently-pregnant-planning-a-pregnancy-or-breastfeeding/covid-19-vaccination-a-guide-for-women-of-childbearing-age-pregnant-planning-a-pregnancy-or-breastfeeding

Are they efficient?
Vaccines = 90-95% effective in real-world studies. Look at the US numbers again prior and after the vaccination program.

Does it decrease the transmission of infection and variants?
Yes, to the best of our knowledge, Vaccines are working against variants till now. Although many variants have been identified, the hospitalised numbers are still low. Evidence supports that those fully vaccinated are less likely to transmit virus ؜

Time intervals between vaccines?
It’s ok to get the 2nd dose at 4, 8 or 12 weeks. Countries delay second dose to manage supply constraints. Efficacy won’t be compromised

Do antibody tests have a role after vaccination?
There is no need check antibody levels after vaccination. More test, more confusion

#COVID19
#CoronavirusPandemic

But if the NHS wasn’t overwhelmed in 2014-2015 when there were over 20,000 flu deaths that winter and in previous years there are always at least 10,000 flu deaths in the UK annually, why would it be overwhelmed with Covid deaths? Why is ok for tens of thousands of people to die with flu each year but not from Covid? Flu is a worldwide endemic and kills hundreds of thousands globally each year. How long should we carry on locking down for? Until deaths are ‘only’ in the hundreds? Tens? Single digits? We are going to have to live with it? What if it never goes away and we can’t keep the number of deaths under a few hundred each year? Do we never live properly again??