To think we shouldn’t have another lockdown to protect vaccine refusers?

[Susie477]

Everyone over 40 or in high-risk groups has now been offered a vaccine. The overwhelming majority, including me, have gratefully taken up the offer. A small minority have refused the vaccine, as is their right, of course.

Now we are seeing new ‘variants of concern’ and unvaccinated vulnerable people in some areas are now being hospitalised because they have been infected.

Some people are now calling for extended restrictions in these areas to prevent the new variant spreading. Why should responsible people who have been vaccinated be punished by yet more lockdown because idiots in their communities are too stupid or too selfish to get vaccinated?

@MargaretThursday

Bollocks - pregnant women can safely have the vaccine. They have been in other countries, they have been here

They can't say yet whether it's safe for pregnant women. It's not just about if they immediately lose the baby, but there could be issues after birth that wouldn't be coming out in enough numbers yet. Look at Thalidomide, that took 5 years for doctors to make the connection. I'd expect it to be quicker now because I'd expect them to be looking out for it however, let's say it also causes missing limbs.
There are 60 babies a year born with missing limbs in the UK (my dd is one of them). Most of them for an unknown cause.
How many people in the UK so far have had both injections and then given birth? I'd suspect very few. So even if it doubled the risk, I doubt it would yet be statistically significant.

I don't think it's unreasonable for a pregnant lady to be nervous. I would myself, and I am generally pro vax.

The safety data for pregnant women isn’t based on the U.K, it’s based on the US. 90,000 pregnant women there have received the vaccine with no issue. That’s the basis on which it was recommended here.

And Thalidomide isn’t a vaccine.

@GappyValley yes but they haven’t been prioritised despite being classed as critically vulnerable and given than most pregnant women are under 40 that means most Pregnant women haven’t been vaccinated.

@osbertthesyrianhamster all very well saying that about under 40s but as long as there are a large proportion of people unvaccinated then there is a strong probability of the virus mutating in those people, potentially creating a variant that the vaccine doesn’t work as well against or that does affect younger people worse.

If it was the other way around and they started vaccinating younger people first I’m sure a lot of people would think differently and think that we should continue to protect the older population.

I completely agree. I've no idea why I'm reading this, as I avoid reading most Covid threads. I follow Mac n' Chise on Twitter, she posts studies showing the effectiveness of the various vaccines.

Bloody hell, what's happened to Mumsnet?? I was quoting @GappyValley from the first or second page 🙄 but the quote isn't showing.

@Kokapetl

If a vaccine is 90% effective that's still one in ten of the most vulnerable who could potentially end up hospitalised or dead.

Apart from the younger adults who haven't even been offered the vaccine, children are not getting it at all and they can still get seriously ill with Covid. I wouldn't mind keeping a few restrictions (masks, some distancing, limits on numbers indoors) to stop children ending up with damaged hearts for example.

I don't think that's how vaccine efficacy percentages work.

Young people, old people, vaccinated people still get very ill and die of flu every year, tens of thousands of them, and we don't lock down for that. Are you proposing restrictions forever?

Everyone over 40 or in high-risk groups has now been offered a vaccine.

Only 20,287,403 out of the entire U.K. population have received both doses.

[quote Peaplant20]@GappyValley yes but they haven’t been prioritised despite being classed as critically vulnerable and given than most pregnant women are under 40 that means most Pregnant women haven’t been vaccinated.

@osbertthesyrianhamster all very well saying that about under 40s but as long as there are a large proportion of people unvaccinated then there is a strong probability of the virus mutating in those people, potentially creating a variant that the vaccine doesn’t work as well against or that does affect younger people worse.

If it was the other way around and they started vaccinating younger people first I’m sure a lot of people would think differently and think that we should continue to protect the older population.[/quote]
I doubt that. Increasing number of people are done with these lockdowns. They have devastating effects. This virus is here to stay.

YABU, I’m pregnant but due to age can’t get vaccinated yet, despite the fact that we are a vulnerable group in the 3rd trimester. Not everyone who is vulnerable has been offered the vaccine yet.

I agree OP... Widely reported that majority in hospital with Indian variant had refused vaccination.
I am incensed that the road map maybe derailed and the majority who have followed the rules, and have had their vaccines etc arw going to be subject more restrictions, with its detrimental effects all because people were too selfish to get vaccinated.

Oh ffs, when did MN turn into the daily mail. Do people actually fall for these targeted sensationalist headlines . The Only reason further lockdowns are now needed is because of our governments continual monumental cock ups, allowing all these varients in to the UK in the first place, even then these lockdowns were about covering up the fact the our NHS isn't fit for purpose, they are not and never have been about saving lives.
The majority of vaccine refusers won't have even been offered a vaccine yet so how the fuck is it their fault. I'm 47 and haven't been offered my vaccine yet. The rest of the UK is way behind England.

@Lucidas I have checked the data and they are basing the "90,000 had no issues" on the fact that more side effects have not been reported by those 90,000. They are not following them up fully like normal trials and the majority have not had their babies to see if there was any effect. They are trying to recruit them to record the data properly and see what if any effect there is but so far have not recruited enough of them that have had their babies to tell.
I am keeping up with the developments there to make my own decision.

@Toty

Oh ffs, when did MN turn into the daily mail. Do people actually fall for these targeted sensationalist headlines . The Only reason further lockdowns are now needed is because of our governments continual monumental cock ups, allowing all these varients in to the UK in the first place, even then these lockdowns were about covering up the fact the our NHS isn't fit for purpose, they are not and never have been about saving lives. The majority of vaccine refusers won't have even been offered a vaccine yet so how the fuck is it their fault. I'm 47 and haven't been offered my vaccine yet. The rest of the UK is way behind England.

Its not about ‘falling for’ sensationalist headlines. Figures on vaccine refusers currently hospitalised are clear. And where do your statistics showing that the majority of refusers haven’t been offered the vaccine come from?

@LunaMuffinTop

I’m going to get my 2nd vaccine tomorrow I lost 2 family members 10 days apart to Covid all my family have had the vaccine the only ones who haven’t are my 7 year old niece, my 18 month old niece and my husband who has a serve needle phobia he faints at the sight of a needle and because of that he point blank refuses to get the vaccine I’ve offered to get him tattoo numb and we’ll test that and if that works then he will go and get the vaccine. My friend can’t have the vaccine because he’s allergic to them and he’s been offered no alternative he has just been left unvaccinated.

Tell your dh that if he were to be hospitalised with covid the first thing they would probably do would be to insert a venflon into his hand which involves a needle which remains in for his entire length of stay to give drugs if needed.

The vaccine is probably about 3 seconds!!

I know what I’d prefer if I was needle phobic!

I am incensed that the road map maybe derailed and the majority who have followed the rules, and have had their vaccines etc arw going to be subject more restrictions, with its detrimental effects all because people were too selfish to get vaccinated

Don't fall for it. This is Johnson's fuck up where he refused to red list India for too long due to his precious post Brexit trade deal.
They are now lying and putting the blame onto the plebs as usual.

The safety data for pregnant women isn’t based on the U.K, it’s based on the US. 90,000 pregnant women there have received the vaccine with no issue. That’s the basis on which it was recommended here.

Firstly the US only started giving the vaccine in mid December. That's 5 months ago, so there can't be much data on people who had it in the first trimester.

And Thalidomide isn’t a vaccine. It's a medication. Medications and vaccines can both have side effects.
And my point was that when something causes a side effect, especially one that can sometimes occur naturally, it takes time to realise that it isn't just "one of those things". Thalidomide had a horrific effect, and still took 5 years for them to link it.
For the example I gave. 60 children a year a born with a limb deficiency. That varies from being the end of a finger, through to all four limbs missing. There's about 700k children born each year (UK), so that's less than 0.01% of births.

• Limbs are formed in the first 5 weeks of pregnancy, so they'd have had to have the injection then to effect the development of a limb, so the US market wouldn't have had the vaccine at that stage and given birth, and no, a missing limb isn't always picked up at the scan. I'd reckon at best about 50/50 are picked up at the scan. DD's was, but plenty aren't, even among people who had several scans for other reasons. I'd reckon the numbers of limb deficient babies could probably increase ten times and it still would take time to realise it wasn't just one of those things because it would still be small numbers. You get unusual clusters in random distribution, so a hospital suddenly having two in quick succession is unusual, but I do know of it happening. For example overall a limb deficiency is twice as likely in a girl. However dd was one of very few girls at her limb centre when growing up-it was about 75% boys. Just one of those random things.

*I am not implying that the Covid Vaccine causes limb deficiency or any other birth defect. As far as I am aware, there are no links being investigated. However I am saying that I understand if someone doesn't want the injection because they are pregnant as I would say they can't state with certainty that it won't.

No one is suggesting that OP. We’ll have another lockdown if the NHS is at risk of overwhelm, not otherwise.

I share your frustration at vaccine refusers, but not everyone who is middling vulnerable has had the chance of 2 jabs yet - some not even one.

I think we are some way off another lockdown, but we’re also some way off being able to relax much.

@ozymandiusking

I said months ago. If you Choose not to have your vaccination and you catch Covid, do not come running to the NHS for treatment. Choices have consequences.

I suppose you believe the same should apply to smokers, gin drinkers, overweight, etc.

@Toty

Oh ffs, when did MN turn into the daily mail. Do people actually fall for these targeted sensationalist headlines . The Only reason further lockdowns are now needed is because of our governments continual monumental cock ups, allowing all these varients in to the UK in the first place, even then these lockdowns were about covering up the fact the our NHS isn't fit for purpose, they are not and never have been about saving lives. The majority of vaccine refusers won't have even been offered a vaccine yet so how the fuck is it their fault. I'm 47 and haven't been offered my vaccine yet. The rest of the UK is way behind England.

please can you provide a link showing evidence that the rest of the uk is behind England. As far as I remember, Wales is actually ahead and NI at about the same level.

Scotland may be behind and my family in the Highlands say that’s par for the course.

More divide and conquer from the government following hot on the heels from snitching on neighbours. This time with an added layer of barely concealed racism in the media. Nice. Just what society needs.

It's not refusing to have not been offered the vaccine yet.
People may have clear reasons to be exempt, or more commonly, specific concerns about whether the vaccine is the best course of action for specific conditions where there is a lack of evidence.
Some people are just "not yet" and want to have more information than is currently avaliable and will be likely to consent with time.
Better to rattle through the keen masses then work on catching up with people who are more concerned and potentially persuadable.
The small number of genuinely anti-vaxx (in the normal context) people won't be persuaded either way. Fortunately they are low enough on numbers not to be significantly detrimental to the performance of the vaccination programme.

Some communities will need a more targeted approach listening to and adressing their concerns and making it more accessible at a localised level. Much more successful than being "othered" and ostricised.
For some people in low-paid work, they won't be willing to risk an unpaid day off ill with side-effects. Especially they've already had the illness and the isolation time from that.

The more people vaccinated, the better, but people should not be bullied into medical procedures with a high chance of inconvenient mild side effects.

Lockdowns damage society and we are already at a stage where vaccination should be protecting the NHS and the vast majority who are more suceptible to serious cases. By the time we get to the autumn and colds/ flu season, all adults should have had the opportunity to be vaccinated once and most twice. Lockdowns should not be needed again. We need to undo the damage already caused in the past 14m.

This 40yo is hoping that next month's second vaccine is better than her first round experience... meanwhile other peoples' situations and choices are not my personal problem.

The more it is allowed to spread, the more likely it is to mutate into something more dangerous and vaccine-resistant.

@freakyfridays

normalsaline

It’s very easy for most people to make the choice, including pregnant women. I am one. It’s recommended by RCOG etc, why wouldn’t you?
The ones I feel sorry for are those who CAN’T get it due to allergies etc

It's not easy at all, we have no data on the long-term effects, on the effects on the baby and, until you have it done, no idea on how YOU will react! Some people reacted very badly with high temperature after the jab, really not ideal when you are pregnant.

Good for you if you find the decision easy, but in a world where new researches have proven that even paracetamol is not as inoffensive as people pretend , you cannot say it's "easy",

It's a gamble.

Actually it is easy if you do the research and not pay attention to scare monger.

You clearly are one of those who like to scare people.

The high temp is rare and can be handled via paracetamol. What do u think happens to your body when you get covid?

There are KNOWN covid risks in pregnancy for premature birth and they have difficulty ventilating pregnancy women. If you get covid in the third trimester your more likely to be admitted into the ICU. These are facts. It won’t happen to everyone who’s pregnant that infected by covid but it happens. With the uptick in infections now and expected in autumn /winter it’s responsible for you & your unborn baby to get the vaccine.

@oneglassandpuzzled@Toty I’m interested in this link also as Wales are now vaccinating people under 30.

@MargaretThursday

The safety data for pregnant women isn’t based on the U.K, it’s based on the US. 90,000 pregnant women there have received the vaccine with no issue. That’s the basis on which it was recommended here.

Firstly the US only started giving the vaccine in mid December. That's 5 months ago, so there can't be much data on people who had it in the first trimester.

And Thalidomide isn’t a vaccine. It's a medication. Medications and vaccines can both have side effects.
And my point was that when something causes a side effect, especially one that can sometimes occur naturally, it takes time to realise that it isn't just "one of those things". Thalidomide had a horrific effect, and still took 5 years for them to link it.
For the example I gave. 60 children a year a born with a limb deficiency. That varies from being the end of a finger, through to all four limbs missing. There's about 700k children born each year (UK), so that's less than 0.01% of births.

• Limbs are formed in the first 5 weeks of pregnancy, so they'd have had to have the injection then to effect the development of a limb, so the US market wouldn't have had the vaccine at that stage and given birth, and no, a missing limb isn't always picked up at the scan. I'd reckon at best about 50/50 are picked up at the scan. DD's was, but plenty aren't, even among people who had several scans for other reasons. I'd reckon the numbers of limb deficient babies could probably increase ten times and it still would take time to realise it wasn't just one of those things because it would still be small numbers. You get unusual clusters in random distribution, so a hospital suddenly having two in quick succession is unusual, but I do know of it happening. For example overall a limb deficiency is twice as likely in a girl. However dd was one of very few girls at her limb centre when growing up-it was about 75% boys. Just one of those random things.

*I am not implying that the Covid Vaccine causes limb deficiency or any other birth defect. As far as I am aware, there are no links being investigated. However I am saying that I understand if someone doesn't want the injection because they are pregnant as I would say they can't state with certainty that it won't.

I wondered when some idiot would start posting about Thalidomide.

Your post is ABSOLUTE bollocks.

Thalidomide Crossed the placenta. There is absolutely no evidence that the MRNA vaccines cross the placenta. Please for fuck sake EDUCATE yourself before posting such absolute drivel.

Limb deformities are picked up in the anomaly scan - it’s EXACTLY what the scan is for amongst other anomalies.

Not everyone is vaccinated yet. I’m only getting my first one today and I’m 42. We need a much higher % to be vaccinated before we can say the risk is reduced.

I think we should definitely go back into a hard lockdown, we dont want another spike