To think we shouldn’t have another lockdown to protect vaccine refusers?

[Susie477]

Everyone over 40 or in high-risk groups has now been offered a vaccine. The overwhelming majority, including me, have gratefully taken up the offer. A small minority have refused the vaccine, as is their right, of course.

Now we are seeing new ‘variants of concern’ and unvaccinated vulnerable people in some areas are now being hospitalised because they have been infected.

Some people are now calling for extended restrictions in these areas to prevent the new variant spreading. Why should responsible people who have been vaccinated be punished by yet more lockdown because idiots in their communities are too stupid or too selfish to get vaccinated?

I am not sure anyone in the UK can pretend that the NHS wasn't overwhelmed before the pandemic when it was already an absolute shamble.

Covid would have just worsen an already dramatic and unreliable situation.

@OlympicProcrastinator

But if the NHS wasn’t overwhelmed in 2014-2015 when there were over 20,000 flu deaths that winter and in previous years there are always at least 10,000 flu deaths in the UK annually, why would it be overwhelmed with Covid deaths? Why is ok for tens of thousands of people to die with flu each year but not from Covid? Flu is a worldwide endemic and kills hundreds of thousands globally each year. How long should we carry on locking down for? Until deaths are ‘only’ in the hundreds? Tens? Single digits? We are going to have to live with it? What if it never goes away and we can’t keep the number of deaths under a few hundred each year? Do we never live properly again??

The nhs was on its knees already and that’s why there was the worry about the annual flu season - because it put a strain on the NHS.

The answer is to fund the nhs properly and improve the health of our population. The latter would take an effort to improve education and the economic outlook of people - better housing, better paid jobs, better public transport etc.

The government is not interested in that. So the nhs continues to crumble.

@OlympicProcrastinator

But if the NHS wasn’t overwhelmed in 2014-2015 when there were over 20,000 flu deaths that winter and in previous years there are always at least 10,000 flu deaths in the UK annually, why would it be overwhelmed with Covid deaths? Why is ok for tens of thousands of people to die with flu each year but not from Covid? Flu is a worldwide endemic and kills hundreds of thousands globally each year. How long should we carry on locking down for? Until deaths are ‘only’ in the hundreds? Tens? Single digits? We are going to have to live with it? What if it never goes away and we can’t keep the number of deaths under a few hundred each year? Do we never live properly again??

One of the features of covid is the number of younger people who are severely affected, who spend longer spells in ICU/on ventilation.

Covid is much than flu for every age group bar the very young.

Covid + flu will be a very large amount for the NHS to manage.

Regarding 'how long should we carry on locking down' - below the level at which the NHS will be overwhelmed is the government's current position. A third wave could still go above this threshold despite the vaccinations (and no, that does not mean vaccinations were pointless, it would be approx ten times worse without them).

Fat chance. Until everyone has been offered and given time to get both jabs, they really can't start pointing the finger at the unvaccinated! There are plenty of immunocomoromised elderly people who may have had the vaccine but for whom it will do bugger all good because they don't develop the antibodies. Those people are only protected when the whole population is vaccinated.

*One of the features of covid is the number of younger people who are severely affected, who spend longer spells in ICU/on ventilation.

Covid is much than flu for every age group bar the very young.

Covid + flu will be a very large amount for the NHS to manage.

Regarding 'how long should we carry on locking down' - below the level at which the NHS will be overwhelmed is the government's current position. A third wave could still go above this threshold despite the vaccinations (and no, that does not mean vaccinations were pointless, it would be approx ten times worse without them).*

Where to even start with this

@SoupDragon

A saw arm or a headache for a week isn’t really a life changing side affect.

Fatal blood clots are.

You mean like the contraceptive pill that women take? Perspective.

@SoupDragon

A saw arm or a headache for a week isn’t really a life changing side affect.

Fatal blood clots are.

Fatal blood clots are.

...extremely uncommon.

I am not sure anyone in the UK can pretend that the NHS wasn't overwhelmed before the pandemic when it was already an absolute shamble. Covid would have just worsen an already dramatic and unreliable situation

That’s just political hyperbole. However you personally feel about the government and NHS, the government has never shut the country down for annual flu deaths in their tens of thousands. There have been hardly any flu deaths this winter but there have been Covid deaths.

At what point do we accept, as we have done with flu, that people will die. If the government told you we couldn’t come out of lockdown for another year would you accept it?

If so what about the year after? Or the year after that? How many years would people, on the whole, accept living with restrictions? We have merrily accepted an endemic that kills thousands each year for our entire lives already.

That’s just political hyperbole.

The state of the NHS? On which planet could anyone be satisfied with the lack of infrastructure, the lack of staff, the ridiculous waiting lists, the post code lotteries. How would anyone find it acceptable to have ambulances queuing in front of hospitals (when you are lucky enough to get an ambulance), people dumped in the corridors, women without even a drink for hours, urgent treatments taking MONTHS on a waiting list..

3 weeks to see a GP! How is that ever right.

It's not political, it's fact. And frankly, if we hadn't be so blind or complacent, covid wouldn't have brought such a mess.

You can be against restrictions and happy to see people dying India-style, you can't deny how poor the NHS is.

The state of the NHS? On which planet could anyone be satisfied with the lack of infrastructure, the lack of staff, the ridiculous waiting lists, the post code lotteries. How would anyone find it acceptable to have ambulances queuing in front of hospitals (when you are lucky enough to get an ambulance), people dumped in the corridors, women without even a drink for hours, urgent treatments taking MONTHS on a waiting list

That’s got nothing to do with the governments decision to lock down over low numbers of Covid deaths (currently) when they are happy to have restrictions when twenty thousand people with flu die. It’s just a rant about the state of the NHS.

A lot of people have still not had the opportunity to have the vaccine yet. We have to be fair to younger people in who have had to wait the longest.

@AFS1

I entirely understand why you say that, and I share your anger at the selfishness of the anti-mask/anti-lockdown/anti-vaccine mob.

However, the thing I’m most concerned about is the virus mutating and the more it spreads, the more risk it will develop into a vaccine-resistant strain. For that reason, we all need to be cautious, even if it’s primarily down to the selfish idiots who won’t gat vaccinated.

Exactly this. Every new case is a new chance for mutation and development of a new variant. Nobody is safe until everyone is safe.

Absolutely @GappyValley.

As a scientist, I’ve been reading @freakyfridays posts with bemusement. I’m so sick of people who think that confidence = competence.

Which other virus has mutated to be more and more virulent and deadly? I'd really be scared of that one. Must be loads of literature detailing it?

Another lockdown would be too much for people, the young have suffered so much, normal life needs to be resumed, we have to learn to live with this virus

Is it flu? Because there have been very deadly waves of that. Good job the vaccines and complete shut downs of society have gotten rid of it. Well done everyone.

There have been so few cases of flu, must be gone now? Yes?

Why do people who are against this keep jumping straight to “shall we lockdown forever then???” No one is saying that. In many peoples opinions it’s reasonable to keep at least some restrictions until most people have been vaccinated to the point at which we have a good level of herd immunity.

@Blossomtoes it’s not true that those who remain unvaccinated are very low risk. Almost all pregnant women are under 40 and are classed as critically vulnerable but have not been prioritised for the vaccine unles they have other underlying health conditions. Similar situation with asthmatics.

The vaccine isn't 100% effective.

But quite apart from that, COVID isn't the only thing you can die of. Unknown hundreds, likely thousands of people have died from conditions that couldn't be treated because the health system was swamped with COVID patients. Whole hospitals had to stop treating cancer patients, and were unable to carry out even but urgent operations because their ICUs and even the operating theatres themselves were full of COVID patients on ventilators.

If you'd been in a car crash at the height of the biggest wave of the pandemic, you'd have waited longer for am ambulance and the doctors and equipment you needed to survive would have been less readily available. No vaccine you could have received would have prevented this.

@freakyfridays

You are really, really showing how little you understand the subject. I’m a bit embarrassed for you and some of your posts tbh.

Other posters, including ones who are scientists, are right to call out your posts as ignorant

Btw, Googling isn’t ‘doing research’
Research is what scientists are doing before publishing results which are then used to govern the medical advice which you’re ignoring

What you’re doing is use the internet to validate your confirmation bias

@caringcarer

A lot of people have still not had the opportunity to have the vaccine yet. We have to be fair to younger people in who have had to wait the longest.

I can guarantee that the majority of younger people don't want to stay in lockdown until they are vaccinated, they want to get back out there and live their lives. I'm 30 and haven't been vaccinated yet, I would go back to normal tomorrow if I could. Every one of my friends the same age feels the same.

Sparechange

I agree that Googling isn’t ‘doing research’
my point exactly as shown on the thread...

but bonus points for the Other posters, including ones who are scientists of course they are 😂

What you’re doing is use the internet to validate your confirmation bias
Yeah...
You do know that more than 50% of pregnant women already refuse the "influenza" jab every year don't you... So pretending it's "easy" decisions? Really?

But see, stating things like that doesn't imply that one agrees or disagree with their decision... you spectacularly missing that point though. So are some of the so-called "scientists"...

“So called scientists”

That’s why no one can take your posts seriously

@Sparechange

“So called scientists”

That’s why no one can take your posts seriously

oh yes, because a random on MN calling themselves " a scientist" must be genuine, of course.... If it's on MN, IT MUST BE TRUE! 😂

We are lucky on this forum, we always have top and senior authorities in all areas. The legal sector is quite well represented too.

I am especially loving the "scientist" who mentioned the risk of blood clots with contraceptive pill - true, but in the context of pregnancy and late pregnancy still amusing.