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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

999 replies

Faffandahalf · 16/05/2021 09:28

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Menoismymate · 18/05/2021 17:53

@Faffandahalf might be time to start thinking about thread 3 - which hopefully will be discussing a ceasefire...

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 17:53

See above @stoneofdestiny - no-one is denying that Ben-Gurion said any of this. But it would be a little bit like me posting quotes from the German government of 1936 and using that as evidence to prove that modern day Germans deserve to have rockets fired into their homes, no?

piddocktrumperiness · 18/05/2021 17:56

Your lived experiences are valid @Acidburn- and I am sorry for all the trauma and oppression Jewish people faced for millennia. I cannot deny that and it hurts to know that in 2021, you still feel on edge whenever something happens in the Middle East.

You do not know me and so my words may mean nothing to you, but you and I are similar in some ways.

Allow me to explain
I was born in the Uk, am a proud British Palestinian. My family lineage is Haifa, Hebron and Jerusalem. Growing up my dad told me of stories of his experiences growing up in the Middle East as a refugee post 1948, and as an immigrant doctor here in the UK. My father always carried his (documents, travel ID and passport)on his person when he was in the Middle East because he never knew what was going to happen to him and whether he'd have no home to go to.

More recently, so after 9/11, we would have family drills where he would show us where he kept all the important files and documents should something happen. My father for a long time was on edge and would see very micro aggression as a a personal attack on him and Arabs.

My mother, God rest her soul, was a blonde fair skinned, but practising muslim- she endured so much abuse from Englishmen who would yell at her and call her a traitor (thinking she converted) . She wasn't really clued with the latest slang and I if I was with her, and heard someone say something, would deflect and make something else up because the abuse was dirty. She had acid thrown at her car. She had a gang of youths shake the car whilst she was sat with me when I was a baby. She would triple lock the house doors incase some youths wanted to cause trouble when my dad was locum. She remembers them yelling "go back to where you came from you dogs"- that was the 80's.

My mother always taught me to buy myself some small gold coins, or pendants, solid gold- and keep them safe, because as things were turning ugly after 9/11, we would never know when we would have to get out. I did not see or experience the threat but she must have felt it. My grandmother just have taught her the same thing.

She started to wear a headscarf in her later years but would take it off every time a terrorist incident took place, and would stop speaking arabic to us in public, so that she wouldn't stand out.

More recently, I endured the shit that surfaced after 9/11. Every single time some bastard kills children and terrorises people, I was made to answer for them, at 17yrs old, no matter how removed I was, how skimpy my clothes were, how rebellious of a teen I was, and non practising I was, but by the mere fact I was from the Middle East originally, had a funny name, and didn't look like everyone else, eyes were on me to explain why they did what they did and what I was going to do about it.

My family and I would lay low socially to avoid awkwardness and stupid questions. I lived in a predominately white and insular community so people must have thought I had terrorists on speed dial.

So even though I could take things personally, I can't and don't, because lets face it- people don't like arabs. They conflate arab with oil rich or terrorism- no in-between. People don't like muslims. Again they conflate all muslims with a bunch of far right extremists. People don't like communities that are too "tight knit" as they could cause trouble. They don't like "different", they can't understand why we eat what we eat, or do what we do and look at us weird.Some think we're filthy and ugly and uneducated and unsophisticated, barbarians who throw everything off a roof including the kitchen sink.

Many see us as one monolith that brings suffering onto themselves.

Yawnattack · 18/05/2021 17:57

@joanneg36, In what way do you consider the current actions of the Israeli government to not be an attempt at genocide?

Why do you consider the suggestion that it is as antisemitic?

I do agree that the other points you list are antisemitic but I have trouble understanding this one.

piddocktrumperiness · 18/05/2021 17:57

I hope you can see there some echoes or similarities however small. We are not so different

GoingOnABarHunt · 18/05/2021 17:57

@joanneg36

  • posters who dismissed/minimised the human rights violations of Palestinians were doubted, if you think the only people who can possibly do that are Jewish then that’s on you.
  • that inflatable is obviously the ‘Satan of the Arabs’ who has a large, hook nose.
  • why does your definition of genocide differ to the confirmed definition?
  • it is when people are equating Jews with the Israeli government in order to call anti semitism, when posters have easily managed to not conflate the two leading up to anti semitism being called.
joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 17:58

For what it's worth, I have suggested to @mumsnet that if this conversation isn't going to continue, what would be really helpful is some general guidelines about what does and doesn't constitute anti-semitism. It is really tiresome and upsetting for Jewish posters to keep having to explain why certain things are anti-semitic tropes and should be avoided. The IHRA definition exists for a reason, and god knows, there are enough ways to criticise the Israeli government without lapsing into casual anti-semitism. Jews know this, because we manage to do it all the time. But the tone of much of this debate is fundamentally so offensive that someone 'impartial' does need to step in.

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 18:02

@yawnattack - I don't consider it to be genocide in the same way I don't consider the war crimes the US committed in Vietnam to be genocide. Horrific things can be perpetrated against a people, and they certainly have been against the Palestinians - but genocide is the deliberate and intentional attempt to wipe out an entire people. I don't believe, for all they have done wrong, the Israeli government are or have ever been attempting to do this, or that there is any evidence that they have.

Acidburn · 18/05/2021 18:07

@piddocktrumperiness I am so, so sorry. You are right, we are similar.

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 18:07

And Jews are - for some strange reason - a bit touchy about being accused of genocide in the state they founded to flee genocide. It is yet another way of making the Israeli state 'the exceptional and most evil aggressor'. Most states that have been in unjust wars, our own included, have committed war crimes. Very few states have committed genocide. This distinction is a really really important one when it comes to Israel.

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 18:09

@piddocktrumperiness - I agree with what Acidburn has said, and thank you for writing this very personal post. I once read a brilliant thing by Amos Oz about the crisis in the Middle East that said Jews and Arabs were like the children of abusive parents (the abusive parents in this case being various European colonisers and oppressors). And just like abuse victims, this echoes down the generations...

Acidburn · 18/05/2021 18:12

Whenever a black person feels like they were racially abused - no one says a word, because it would be wrong to question that. However when a Jew says they were insulted by an antisemitic remark - they have to explain why.

StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 18:16

@joanneg36 no-one is denying that Ben-Gurion said any of this. But it would be a little bit like me posting quotes from the German government of 1936

Ah - I thought we were looking at history and past Israeli leaders when Golda Meir was quoted by Acidburn and applauded by Zenia.

Thought a bit of balance was needed. (Though his thinking does seem scarily echoed loudly by pro Israeli posters on here).

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 18:19

Not by me @stoneofdestiny - if you can point me to something I've said that is similar to something Ben-Gurion has said, I'd love to see it.

Literally the only thing I have in common with DBG is that we are both Jewish so, why exactly would you assume that his views on anything are mine?

StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 18:20

@joanneg36 I hope you, and Mumsnet might realise that claiming God gave one religious group (Jews) a superior claim to land on Earth over another religious group is offensive to nearly every other religious group as it's clearly discriminatory.

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 18:20

Also, can you (and everyone) stop saying 'pro-Israeli'. I am pro-Israel in the same way I am pro-French, pro-Nigerian, or pro-Australian, or indeed pro-Palestinian. i.e. I believe it is a country that has a right to exist. That's literally it. If by 'pro-Israeli' you mean Jewish, say Jewish. If not, 'pro-Israeli' is literally a meaningless phrase. I am not 'pro' the current Israeli government in literally any sense at all.

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 18:21

@StoneofDestiny Where have I said God gave Jews a superior claim to land? I have literally not said that anywhere ever, I've said the exact opposite and you are being extremely offensive now.

StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 18:22

Literally the only thing I have in common with DBG is that we are both Jewish so, why exactly would you assume that his views on anything are mine?

I didn't _ I said it's echoed on the thread by pro Israeli posters - might not be you if you say so.

JustFedUpOfThis · 18/05/2021 18:23

@joanneg36

I think you have been the only Israel-supporting poster to acknowledge that Israel was founded on Arab land. Most others have disputed or even claimed that Jews have rights to land based in religion

So there is a huge problem with posters on this thread failing to acknowledge the Palestinians have a legitimate right to be upset and to be demanding at least some of their land back.

Perhaps best exemplified by this quote:

This romanticising of the position of the Palestinians as though they were the only refugees in the world and as though everyone else in the world still tilled the same fields their great-grandfather did always seems rather bizarre. I don't know anyone who still lives in the same place their ancestors did. My dh is English, his family were from Hulme. It all got knocked down in slum clearances! They got moved out. It happens. What makes the Palestinian situation so unique that they can't possibly accept it over 70 years later? Yes, they loved their homes. So did we all.

That’s heartless. The injustice against them is irrelevant and all that matters is the secure of Israeli Jews. And the existence of Hamas is an excuse to bomb Palestinian land with a simple - “but Hamas were there” - the collateral damage of children’s lives doesn’t seem to matter.

And finally, it’s very interesting you want MN to issue guidance to avoid anti-semitism. But notice you haven’t suggested Racist, anti-Arab or Islamophobic guidelines should also be suggested. I think this sums up the attitudes of those defending Israel’s actions on this thread - how little the Palestinians matter i- only one side counts.

So fucking depressing.

StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 18:23

joanneg36 criticism accepted, pro Israeli Government.

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 18:24

'if you say so' - nice.

Every person on this thread who you are calling 'pro-Israeli' has quite clearly signalled their disagreement with the current Israeli government. You are calling them 'pro-Israeli' because they don't believe Israel should be wiped off the map. That's it. Are you not pro-Israeli yourself? Don't you believe Israeli citizens have a right to remain in their country?

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 18:26

That's a fair point on the other forms of racism @justfedupofthis - the reason I haven't suggested it is because amongst 'good-thinking' progressive types on mumsnet, there is only ever one acceptable form of prejudice, which is anti-semitism. If someone spoke about Black people the way some of the people on this thread are speaking about Jews, I'm fairly sure they'd be kicked off mumsnet for life.

But your point nonetheless is fair. Guidelines should be comprehensive and on this topic particularly, cover anti-Arab prejudice as well.

JustFedUpOfThis · 18/05/2021 18:30

If by 'pro-Israeli' you mean Jewish, say Jewish

Surely this is anti-Semitic? Not all Jews support the Israeli government. So I think you are trying to shut down the argument.

If I say “I can’t believe the Jewish posters on this thread are defending their government’s actions” I would be immediately and rightly accused of anti-semitism.

So I refuse to accept that substitute

It’s akin to saying Unionists (re Northerm Ireland) should just be called Protestants. I’m a Protestant (not practising). I’m most certainly not a Unionist.

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 18:33

I just don’t understand what ‘pro-Israeli’ means? I’m not being argumentative. I find it problematic because no-one ever says ‘pro-British’ or ‘pro-French’ or ‘pro-Egyptian’. It’s only ever used about Israel - and that is because Israel’s existence seems to be up for discussion. Which is anti-Semitic.

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 18:36

With most countries, their right to exist is taken as read, and you then criticise the government's action. You might say 'I don't like Boris Johnson' for example, rather than saying 'I'm anti-English'.

But with Israel, people genuinely are seen as 'pro' or 'anti' it in a way that is profoundly unhelpful and prejudiced. It is a country - sometimes it has had better governments, sometimes worse ones. It has done some bad stuff, which deserves to be criticised. But it occupies a position of unique evil in the minds of most of the left. And you have to ask yourself why that is...

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